Police volunteer admitted that 160 tourists were scammed including six Britons.
“No I dont want a laptop I’ve got too many of those. Jewellery will do.”
Link to British couple fight airport extortionists
Pictures Andrew Chant
This is a blog only
Duty free
She sat there clutching a plastic bag containing a lipstick along with a till receipt for 570 baht. Sian, from Kilkenny in Ireland saw her life ahead in a Bangkok jail and was clearly dumbstruck.
“I never intended to steal anything. I paid for the lipstick and had also picked up some eyeliner worth about 900 Thai baht and taken it to the till. This is all a terrible mistake. I paid by credit card. I thought I had paid for both items”
Sian faces a year in jail……unless.
Ratchatewa Police Station
Friday 4 pm: I am at Ratchatewa Police station just off the perimeter road at Bangkok’s Suvarnabhumi airport to see ‘Sian’ who had been shopping at King Power, the massive consortium which has a virtual monopoly over tourist duty free sales there, when their security pounced.
I tell Sian (not her real name) I am a journalist. “Oh this is not going to make the papers is it? Please do not write anything”. I put down my notebook and pen. I give Sian my telephone number and make my excuses and leave.
What I wanted to talk about, I could not say with the police officer present. The policeman, who I believe, thought that I had come to help the lady financially, asked why I was going so quickly.
Sian had a lawyer and has already got bail for 100,000 baht (about £1800) and has paid the lawyer a deposit of Bt 50,000 (£900). Her lawyer is recommended by the British Embassy.
Before her, laid out on the desk were colour stills printed on A4 taken from one of the thousands of CCTV cameras King Power have installed in their airport shops. Do they show she is guilty?I have no idea.
I cannot pursue this story unless she makes a complaint. To do so in Thailand could seriously jeopardise her future. She knows it. The lawyer knows it. The police know it, the courts know it. I know it. So I’m not expecting a call – at least not until she is safe back in the old country.
Guilty or not guilty Sian is now embroiled in one of the infamous Bangkok scams. The scam is a variation of what happens in police stations all over the country but here it catches tourists when they are most vulnerable, often tired penniless and psyching themselves up for a long haul flight. Similar scams around the country account for why paedophiles are repeatedly released and why when we read about arrests we rarely read about the outcome.
Sian does not want any publicity. She was in Bangkok for a ‘Save the World’ type conference.
She has been told she will have to wait at least a month to go to court. She could go to jail for a year. She is another potential candidate for the TV series ‘Banged Up Abroad’.
Scammed? you may end up in this pink hotel
The option which has been given to all those tourists from many countries,who have preceded her (several a week) is, of course, to pay up. Police will keep the bail and she will be required to pay a large payment for letters which will say that police can find no conclusive evidence of her guilt and allow her to leave the country.
This scam is probably netting millions of Thai baht a month. Legally I cannot say where the money is going. But the first 100,000 baht bail goes to police and is not returned and the rest goes through a ‘fixer’, often a Thai speaking foreign police volunteer. After the payments are made the victims receive a letter from the Prosecutor at Samut Prakarn Court saying a case has not been pursued through a lack of evidence.
If the prosecutor were to have been paid, and of course I cannot say that, then other officials at the court would normally be too.
Today Michael Sheridan, a colleague on the Sunday Times, exposes the case of Britons Stephen Ingram and Xi Lin. Sheridan identifies a Sri Lankan Sunil “Tony” Rathnayaka as the fixer who extorts the cash and pays it out to a man known as ‘Phua Yai Noi’ – the little big man. ‘ This pre-supposes there is a ‘Big Big’ man. Tony’admits taking the cash from the couple. He is only there to help, he says. He boasts he has three houses and does not need to do this for the money.
Ingram, a former Cambridge graduate, now an IT and electronics expert and Xi Lin, an IT consultant and BSc and Msc, were arrested and accused of stealing a Givenchy wallet worth over £120.
The threat was all the more severe because (a) they were charged with organised crime (there were two of them) and that (b) the crime took place at night (when most European bound flights leave the airport) all adding to the severity of their case.
British royal with Vichai and sons: courtesy Siam Polo Club
Guilty or not guilty King Power presented CCTV evidence as usual and claim, while they do prosecute severely, they do not prosecute without absolutely firm evidence. Nevertheless the video evidence is by far means conclusive and the couple were not caught with the wallet in their possession.
The chairman of King Power is Vichai Raskriaksorn a polo playing acquaintance of Britain’s Prince Charles, though maybe not a close chum because, although a promise that Charles son William will playpolo in Thailand has been made it has yet come to fruition.
King Power say they cannot be held responsible for what happens in the police station. For sure they know how the system works but its unlikely any management are involved - no matter what some people think of their prices.
In all cases they say they have solid CCTV evidence against the ’shoplifters’ and have started to post the videos on their website.
In a written statement describing their ordeal Ingram and Xi Lin insist they were told that some of the cash would have to go back to King Power. But its only hearsay and police could just be upping the ante.
The couple were held virtually hostage for five days in a pink love motel while their cash was ATM’ed here by the maximum amount possible per day (£300 each) and also transferred from the UK. Conveniently there were ATM’s at the police station and hotel. Xi Lin had to use the £5000 saved to start her Eton educated son’s university education. From their statements they were scammed right up to the point of departure when ‘Tony’ demanded a further £1000 to clear matters with immigration. They claim that Tony, who they refered to as ‘Officer Z’ said that in April this year some 160 tourists had been nabbed at the airport, six of them Britons. Apparently Tony no longer took laptops in lieu of cash as he had too many, but he would consider jewellery.
Police to Immigration 'No intention to steal'
What stands out about Michael Sheridan’s investigation is that we have here for once, not the receipts for the bribes, but the letters which they obtained which showed they were innocent and allowed them to leave the country albeit at a price of £8000.
The first letter (left) is from Ratchatewa Police to Immigration police saying the couple can leave the country.
The second letter (below right) is from the Prosecution Office at Samut Parkarn which stated the court had dropped the case through lack of evidence.
And there we have it.
Personally, guilty or innocent I might not take my chances against Samut Prakarn court. But one worrying aspect about Ingram and Xi Lin’s testimony is a quote attributed to Kate Duffall at the British Embassy saying that people ‘had been arrested walking around King Power shops with goods in their hands’. Dufall has not confirmed her statement.
However it is not difficult to see there may be some over zealous staff being used here, particularly if they have to pay out of their wages for goods that are stolen. In most countries one has to leave the shop first before theft can be established.
No evidence - Samut Prakarn court
Mr. Ingram and Xi Lin have now been recommended a lawyer whom they say has been known to the British Embassy for 15 years and they want to pursue a matter through the Thai courts. I’m not holding my breath.
As the British Embassy may protest, there may be an investigation. But of course their standard quote is: “We will not interfere in another country’s justice system”
If similar cases in the past are anything to go by the Sri Lankan national will be the fall guy who will be presented to the press at a table with piles of 1000 baht bills in front of him. And all local officials will be vindicated
Former Premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who gave King Power the airport concession did after all announce proudly: ‘There is nothing under the sun the Thai police cannot do,” though I guess he meant it in a positive way.
So there you have it. Be very very careful out there.
That eye-shadow or eye-liner could cost you up from £4000 - £10,000!
Finally just a reminder of another scam which has been widely reported. Arriving passengers who stop to buy stuff at King Power duty free, which are over the maximum duty free limit, have reported on the internet that their purchases are tipped off to the ‘Thai authorities’. They are later stopped, not in the Customs Hall, but as they exit the airport.
NB This report has been edited from the original version. Sian did call back. During our conversation she stated categorically that she took both items to the till and presented her credit card. When she signed the slip she thought she had paid for both items.
Hi Andrew
Thanks for posting details of this scam.
As a regular through the concrete monstrosity
that is BKK International I hate this airport.
One big cheap tacky shopping mall with shops taking up all available space. King Power have ruined this place.
Lack of proper seating and when you get to the gates often results in passengers sitting on the floor for hours.
Third world sums it up.
Thailand is a beautiful country but has some serious problems with corruption in all ranks of govenment. I really like visting there but I am looking hard to go some where else. I have been to Thailand many times and enjoyed my stay but I am sick of all the scams. Taxi and tuk-tuk drivers,money scams,police and ect. Bangkok,Pattaya, Phuket it doesn’t matter they all have lots of scam artist there.
Every trip I take to Thailand someone tries to rip me off.
Bad news travel fast and I hope that honest people in Thailand won’t be effected. Thailand people are the ones who will have to take a stand against corruption. Not just the tourist. I will just go elsewhere and spend money some where besides Thailand.
Thailand has some great people they are the ones that need to say no to corruption.
In the past, despite the fact that Vietnam has been my second home for ten years, I have not encouraged tourists to go there because it does not have much to offer when compared to other countries in the area, and because the tourist facilities are sometimes very basic.
BUT, I have never heard of police or other officials in Vietnam preying on tourists. Just the opposite. Tourists in Vietnam are valued for their contributions to the economy. So, from now on, I will be recommending Vietnam as a destination which offers a “real” SE Asian experience, at prices lower than Thailand, and where you can still find a sufficient number of locations that are relatively unspoiled by developers.
I am ‘Sians’ husband and will be flying to Bangkok tomorrow to try and sort out this sordid mess - I would be happy to meet you to see how we could help prosecute those involved, but need to get my wife home first..
John
This whole thing is appalling. Especially the likeliness that the court itself is involved in the scam.
My own instinct in such an ordeal would have been to refuse to bribe anybody, and to go to court (and indeed to sue back for wrongful arrest). But then, if the court itself is crooked… There’s just no way out.
We can only hope that a public scandal arise and force the authorities to tackle this problem.
In the meantime, let’s spread the word: no shopping at King Power! Well, it’s not like their offerings are highly attractive anyway…
The fact that King Power was in the ascendant because of its association with Thai Ruk Thai and successor party parties, has not escaped some of us. Someone obviously has to pay for the boss man’s polo ponies, and he appears to have no qualms about the scam artists making his already dirty image even dirtier.
Conversely, the fact that Thaksin sided with this organization is yet more proof that there was absolutely no magic about him - just another lousy ill thought-out decision by the World’s sloppiest CEO. Anyone who still thinks that Thaksin was successful should be forced to doss down in this airport for a few months. It has never been anything than yet another moneyspinner for the Thaksin sychophants.
I’m sure that links to your blog are already winging their way round cyberspace.
John:Am in touch with ‘Sian’ now. Hope to see you when you arrive. rgds
Swampy Hater: I think I need to point out again tha I have no evidence that any senior staff, or junior for that, at King Power are involved in the scam even though the British couple say were told that security at KP got some of their cash.
“scummy pink motel”….the Valentine is not. It’s a 1000baht/night, shortime hotel, nicely appointed. I stopped reading your story at this
point, fearing it was probably riddled with more inaccuracies ….but
then again, it’s sensationalism that sells in the UK, not accurate reporting.
I know you don’t have any evidence against KP. You are, of course, free to delete anything of mine that you feel compromises your own security.
The point really is, that like most other large local organizations, King Power appears to have no idea that they are responsible for their own actions or lack of action. Any organization that is prepared to ignore such a scam on their premises, for the sake of keeping in good books with the unscrupulous, deserves to lose business..
I have spoken to King Power today. I am sure they are aware that what if happening is affecting their image even if they are not involved. They say they will get back to me. They have re-iterated their claim that they do not press charges unless there is clear evidence. Rules of evidence are different in the courts here
Johnny Short time: I am more than happy to withdraw the word scummy.
I’m not sure that its a good idea to replace it with the phrase ‘well-appointed short-time hotel’, which roughly translates as superior knocking shop.
As its calledValentines why don’t we settle for ‘pink love motel’.
1000 baht a night. I think you were scammed, unless the British couple got a special police rate. My program tells me that you did read the story to the end, but I can amend it so ‘Johnny short-time’ can only read half of half the stories if you so wish. I usually put the sensational stuff in the first half. So we can arrange that you only read the second half of all stories if that suits you.
Swampy hater. I’m not worried about King Power. They can be pragmatic. I’m more worried about the owners of that scummy pink knocking shop!
Very interesting read. Good stuff, Andrew.
Hi Andrew, you are a well known sight in the suds shelters of the big Mango so you will be very aware of how much the situation has deteriorated over the last 5 years. The xenophobic hysteria is seething as the western tourist numbers drop to 10% of their former heights.Ive been there over 20 years but left last year, couldnt stand it anymore.
Thailand must carry a travel warning for tourists
Suds shelters? You must mean bus shelters. I shortened your post a little. Yes there has been a deterioration. But that comes with mass tourism and has happened everywhere else tourists go in droves. Familiarity and contempt and all that. But lets not get too paranoic
I always wonder what I’d do if I found myself in this kind of situation. I guess I’d try and treat it as an extended holiday, ride it out and make a point to call everyone I know in Thailand — unless I ended up in prison, in which case I’d probably panic.
No wonder tourist numbers are down. The Thai government needs to get a grip & a few western governments need to complain too, as the number of cases is building up.
So where should a farang go if he/she really needs a lawyer? (They are best avoided everywhere.) I’ve heard so much bad about the local legal profession, and on the one very unimportant visit I have paid to one, he thoroughly pissed me off in the first minute with his arrogant assumptions.
Furthermore, most of what I hear about the largescale operations (as constantly advertised in the two newspapers) is that they are generally a bunch of conniving ….. . And it also seems that the British Embassy are usually incapable of finding a half decent lawyer at a price that even fairly wealthy tourists can afford. So much for the rest of us trash, who could never afford anything even remotely as good as say an oilman or a Pattaya retiree.
And whereas the Embassy have their compassionate moments, my usual perception of them is they really can’t be bothered to help anyone outside the business classes.
Thanks Andrew for contacting King Power.
Assuming their suites are not in on this, let us hope they get pressured into investigating their employees and pressing charges against anybody in on this scam.
Untermensch: There are good lawyers around. It rather may be the system they work under which ties their hands.
An actual reaction from the several Embassies involved in this scam on behalf of their nationals would be a bonus. I have no evidence that King Power the company are involved in any of these scam, only (1) that they know Thailand a lot more than me, and that (2) solid evidence for a Thai court, with police backing, may not be the same in another of country.
I’ve created this Facebook group about the scam: join and invite your friends to spread the word around!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98083488860
The more the information spreads, the more pressure on King Power to tackle the problem!
Some kind of recognization by government circles would help. But hell, it’s never going to happen, is it? Most of them are too wrapped up in their allotted task of keeping the rest of us in slavery.
I used to love Thailand but scams like this have put me off. Any of us could get caught up in this and then it is a world of horror. I read so many problems of scams in Thailand involving the police that it scares me. I won’t be returning.
Excellent journalism, by the way.
Of course, expecting our hard pressed Embassy staff to actually post something on their web site about this particular scam involving the police and the courts would be quite silly. Embarrassment to their Thai hosts would verge on rudeness and that would never do.
The cautionary advice posted on their web site is predictably anodyne and implies that scams are limited to gem peddlars and bogus tour guides. This is fine as far as it goes but to omit the distinct possibility that hapless tourists could fall prey to corrupt police officers and court staff is quite negligent.
Visitors to Thailand should be left in no doubt that law enforcement in this country is a vested interest where the issue of law and order is actually peripheral to their core business of extracting as much money as possible from whichever source.
Was looking forward to making my first trip to BKK this August for about a month, but am now somewhat hesitant after reading about this scam experienced by the UK couple at the duty free airport store (especially with possible involvement of the local police & judicial system).
The scams listed on numerous websites re: tours, gems, taxis & being vigilant if indulging in the bar (adult) entertainment areas is one thing but the extent of this published scam does concern me somewhat.
I read an article a couple of days ago the the Tourism Authority of Thailand is estimating that foreign tourist numbers will drop by 25%, therefore is it naive to think that these scams won’t increase?
What has been written here does happen though prison sentences of one year seem to be less common now. I have visited several dozen foreign prisoners at Samut Prakan Central Prison who were all arrested at the airport for minor shoplifting charges ranging from face cream to watches. They were sentenced to between 6 months and one year in prison which shocked many lawyers that I spoke to. They said Thai people would have been let off with a fine of a few thousand baht. I know that for a fact as I paid the fine for one Thai person. Samut Prakan Provincial Court was getting a bad reputation of giving harsh sentences to foreigners. However, things seem to have changed last year as, according to a lawyer I met, the court went from giving lengthy sentences to giving a fine instead. I am not sure how true that is but I hardly see any new Westerners now at the prison. It would seem they are getting bail before ending up there now.
Incidentally, the bail of 100,000 baht cannot be paid by yourself as you need someone with repute to vouch for you and be your guarantor. One person I was helping had trouble in getting his bail money back as it was in the lawyers name. At the courthouse they don’t give you cash but rather a cheque. The lawyer was supposed to turn up at 1 p.m. to get the money back but he didn’t arrive until 3.30 p.m. (the time the banks are normally closed). After getting the cheque and putting it in his pocket, he said that we should meet him the following the days when the banks re-open. Luckily for the foreigner, I said that I knew a bank in town that was open until early evening. He then got all his bail money back.
Way past time when an international campaign needs to be launched warning potential visitors of the nasty cons and scams of Thailand which a succession of governments,including the current one,by their total inaction to stop such appear to approve of.
They can have a war on drugs-but not a war on visitor being conned, scammed and robbed, it seems.
Richard Barrow; Thanks for your contribution Richard.Could you give me a bell, please
Richard Barrow: I have just encountered the same problem with one of the victims. Victim paid paid cash 100,000. Bail went in lawyers name. Victim applied for return of bail (to transfer bondsman) No cash in police station. Two people needed to sign police cheque. Never there together. Banks long since closed.Nightmare for people who cannot speak Thai. System for paying in far superior than that for paying out.
They shouldn’t be getting the bail money back at the police station (unless of course it was just a bribe as we all suspect). You go to the clerk office on the ground floor of Samut Prakan Provincial Courthouse to get the money back.
I can fully understand how frightened they can be in this situation with not knowing who to trust. At the end of the day, many of the lawyers (and people pretending to be lawyers) are just trying to get money out of you. One guy I was trying to “help” had to keep giving the lawyer more and more money for various “bribes”. He still went to court (months later) and was found guilty. They pounce on you like vultures. I saw it happening to a relative of a prisoner at Samut Prakan Prison. They come out of the woodwork and prey on your vulnerability. To their credit, the prison now have signs up in English warning people of this kind of scam. They warn people not to hand over money to people who give empty promises of helping their friend or relative.
Your only hope is to use the services of a lawyer on the list provided by your embassy. Other than that their hands are tied. They cannot interfere. They receive a lot of criticism, but to their credit, the embassies (and I include here the British Embassy as I have had contact with them on this matter) are doing an outstanding job in helping these people. They are run off their feet having to visit their nationals in prisons all over the country. It is very time consuming. It is also a thankless job. Not all of these “victims” are sweet and well-mannered. They are some pretty crazy people in the prisons here.
Hi Andrew, where has all this gone so far. Has it died a death? What have you done to circulate this appalling situation. Of course you dont want to foul your own nest in LOS. What about the couple, are they having any luck with the authorites?
QUOTE Westerby: “Visitors to Thailand should be left in no doubt that law enforcement in this country is a vested interest where the issue of law and order is actually peripheral to their core business of extracting as much money as possible from whichever source.”
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.
There is however yet another problem. Almost all large corporations here have little option but to employ security companies run by ex-military and police types. I have met people who have fallen foul of these security companies - most of which seem to have almost zero moral integrity. (One of the largest used to be run by a man who was apparently not averse to kidnapping & blackmail, with his security men acting as his eyes and ears all over the city. And we all know that even the likes of Tesco Lotus once had to get rid of its security company - which then sought revenge with a series of small bomb attacks.
The organization, I recently retired from, has similar problems. The security advisor is an ex-policeman who I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw him - as he launches into anti-farang tirades with absolutely no provocation.
RB by the way nice to see some support for staff at British Embassy for a change.
Have you got any quotes from them by the way? I can’t get any
Edited: Correction. Have them now
Mango Muncher: Its just my job to report not to start a war. I understand certain documents have been sent to the relevant authorities, who may take action, or sit on them. Sitting is always good. If you are asking has this story ended? Answer is No.
To all posters: There is clearly a strong sentiment running in this thread. I get the point. A lot of people are fed up with being scammed. Obviously people also have grudges against the British Embassy and King Power. These grudges may be justified. But this is becoming a bit of a hate diatribe like some bigger forums in Thailand. Lets not take it that way please…………please
Thailand is a lovely country but beware the smiles there is a real loathing of westerners in some areas of Thai society
ignorance is a major factor the presumption that all westerners are rich and have limitless amounts of spare cash
don’t get me wrong i have heard countless rip of stories but a high percentage of the time you always feel your not getting the true story
the fact that monies are not returned to these innocent people is damning of Thai society blind greed
Obviously it’s now a convenient moment to discuss a few crotchet patterns instead.
Untermensch: Well now you’re W’histling Dixie’. I have no objection to people putting strong views across and am reluctant to edit.
I just prefer interesting posts which take the matter further, like those of Richard Barrow who knows for instance Samut Prakan jail quite well and points out that not all those accused are sweetness and light. I hold no torch for anyone geninely accused. I would for instance be interested in comments from those in the tourism industry
What appears to be a flaw in the system is that at the point of arrest, that is before tourists are dragged back through immigration and their exit visas are cancelled, there does not appear to be an English speaker.
Had there been King Power would have known they had bagged a person here at the invite of Thailand, and who is a govt consultant and whose spouse is ex UN etc etc, without actually asking for any sort of explanation. A video cannot prove criminal intent.
Well then you’re probably addressing yourself to the wrong audience. I think we all admire Richard’s prolific work and interesting views, but you can easily interact with him at Embassy soirees.It is an unfortuante fact here (if not everywhere) that blogging gets ugly.
Untermensch: Last time I was there the ex-Ambassador’s wife told me she had two jobs. One was teaching at Harrow. I asked her what the other one was. When I went out for a cigarette they sent a Ghurka with me. Didn’t not mean to be rude, it just came out that way.
And they stopped my New Year bottle of whisky.
Boycott King Power “the place you get scammed” then the Management will have an incentive to address the problem.
I agree and understand your point. “But this is becoming a bit of a hate diatribe like some bigger forums in Thailand.”
You havent mentioned the forum so I won’t either.
But while there is much hate and rubbish and flaming on the site it does have some sensible members who live in thailand and know the score. Your site and theirs is a source for information that expats need. The moderators have to be careful of course but you get some fearless reality from the posts. I would prefer that to the rather sanitised approach of another smaller site with some rather ” out to lunch” posters who have lost touch with reality.
All credit to you and your approach of (within reason and pragmatism) telling it as it is.
You’re spot on with that last paragraph of this report Andrew. I flew late last year for a month in Thailand, stopping at Qatar for a night.
Seeing the price of cigarettes in Qatar, I asked the Customs officer to check how many I could take into Thailand - I’ve never taken them in before due to them being so cheap so didn’t know my allowance, but with the GBP being so poor, the Qatar price made absolute sense. The Customs officer returned and duly replied “anything up to 2000″. Off I went and purchased 1000 to last for my stay.
Upon landing at BKK, my friend and I were ushered through an empty immigration check, leaving hundresds queuing - immediately I knew there was something wrong, it just never happens - we paced through Customs, and out into the Arrivals area. Greeted by two friends, we hadn’t walked 100 yards when my shoulder was gripped and I was duly arrested for “smuggling” by Customs, and had my passport confiscated.
I was taken to a Customs office, then to the Tourist Police office, then to Bang Na to be fined £600, taken to a Bangkok Bank to change £600 worth of travellers cheques, back to Bang Na to pay, and released to continue my journey. The journey from the airport to Bang Na, to Bangkok Bank, to Bang Na, took place in a taxi at my expense, accompanied by the Customs officer who’d arrested me.
The cigarettes were confiscated “to be destroyed” - although I suspect only by people who smoke, and then at a rate of one at a time!
Be careful!
Disgusting. What can you do when the police themselves have become criminals. I would rather be robbed at knifepoint by some poor loser than have to go through something like this.
Local enterprise. No King Power involvement though.
AD: This in today by email. Interesting to see the different applied rates
hi there .i was accussed and arrested for the assalt of anther farang.I was put into Pattaya jail for 1 week ..no charges were laid .then the police tell me i can be released for bht78000. I PAID AND I LEFT..no help from any of the british or australian authorities…i had only been in thailand 5hours when the said offence happened .this happened in xmas 2007.I* have been back to Pattaya many times and i am on the way there again now..I JUST TRY TO KEEP A LOW PROFILE - DB
the police in Bangkok attempted to fine me a few thousand baht for dropping litter from a overflowing bin
the officer was alone so i ignored him completely and managed to slip away while he was calling for back-up at the time i was on my way back to the uk was a little shaken buy this
Fact is law here about stealing,the stealer will be fined up to 50 times of actual price of the object that you steal.
Let say the brand name eye liner for Sian is about 1000 B so it is about 50000 only for her punishment, for the other who steal wallet at about 6000 B price, mutiply by 50 is 300000 baht–around 5000 £ only.I agree the police should give back the first one 50000 B and give the second one back half.
Im Thai—the letter is translated to English carefully enough as —they admitted thay they have stolen things in red hand.All you guys have paid attention on that letter properly before chatting aimless or doing on purpose to just ruin my contry.If same thing happen to your belove contris?I respect your law too. Dont complain if u r grown up,face it–chin up and dont cry –if it is any bettr place to go GO
With my experience I have been travel around the world–diference place diference rule,diff point of veiw, diff point of mind This is the world of adaptation and compromising for controlling diff human form diff background.
I also have to respect your law that you call it as your standard properly;Some contries that I visit I have to mind manner to protect myself and also to protect their own regulation;Visitting not go to destroy thir local life.Not a real professional at all crying after doing somthing without thinking twice.
Let listen to second party before going further–lot of Thai can not speak Eng or explian well in text sure we are not born by Eng speaking mommy—why not check it out with other side a bit before bla bla bla.I people always start to blam someone else for guilt during the denial period–it is the basic self defence machanism.
Im mom running around with kids—my shopping is alway messy but I have to look out that one of my kid will not take thing out with out telling me because I respect my law and I also know that cause 50 times the price and I will also loose my job position if the letter go to my organisation.
You are adult travel alone you have time to check it out before buying properly–not crying after that I did not check–and it is also your duty to keep bill,you have time to think twice before not after guys……
Another issue for guy from Pattaya– is if you dont go to bad place you will not find bad cop–it is the rule for every contries,dont open the chance for bad people–basic survival rule for tourist and also every humanbeing thingsss. May nice placesssssssssssssssss in this or other contries,you will be sure to find kind of that kind of bad guys/who suppose to go back to borrow mommy lipstick cause I donnt think they are real guys /,ladiesssssssssssss,copsss,taxi driversssss at that certain not–very nice placesssssssssssss.
Lady. Thank you for your comments. Whether these people were caught red-handed is hotly disputed. I think most posters here probably accept the rule of law in most countries. I think the point made here is that the rule of law is being abused by those who enforce the law, and not for the first time.
If you had an 1 year daughter in Thailand and were arrested in England say for shoplifting and also knew you were innocent, would you wait a year in a prison for your trial to defend yourself, if that was the choice? I would not. Of course if you do not have the cash or jewellery in Thailand freedom is not an option.
If I had no influence I would pay whatever the police or agents demanded.
Of course in the UK police would not demand cash and would go to jail for even suggesting it. And in the UK you can be dealt with in court the next day, if you so wish. You can also get bail which you do not have to pay until you abscond! And your free lawyer will seriously check the validity of the CCTV ensuring it shows what the police say it shows. Your background will be taken into account as will the integrity of the shop owners. Their integrity will not be assessed on how rich they are.
Actually a lot of Thais I have spoken to are horrified by these arrests.
Thanks again Lady: ‘If you go to a bad place you will find a bad cop’. I think I know what you are trying to say here ‘Scum attracts scum’ but elsewhere we put good cops in bad places to catch bad guys. If the good cops go bad we bang them up. Of course we do not always succeed but we have a better success rate.
Great site. Keep at it. Thanks
The wallet…how can you be arrested for something you don’t have? How could the security people make the allegation in the first place?
I was going to reply to LADY but I could not have bettered your reply.
Re: zoomtokyo July 3, 2009 at 9:00 am
> The wallet…how can you be arrested for something you don’t have?”
I agree & this is what concerns me the most. Logic would dictate that if the item is not found after a personal & baggage search & viewing of any cctv footage then perhaps you never stole anything at all… unless there’s corrupt witnesses/security/police etc.
Dear Lady,
It is wonderful to get a Thai point of view. I especially enjoyed the parts that were not gibberish. You are clearly defending the corrupt thugs that run your police force (I guess you have become inure to it.) This would never happen in a civilized country.
Anyway, well done. Keep writing your comments if you want more tourists to stay away.
This story, has the that ‘it could have so easily been me’ resonance that so many other life altering thai horror stories don’t have. Its one of those stories you read and remember; I would imagine that a lot of people will avoid the scam by simply not setting foot in the airport shops. I would feel sorry for King Power if it were not so easy for them to kill this scam off; its a complex scam, which requires a lot of groups to cooperate:
King Power must file charges with the police
Shop staff must ensure that people have goods not on a receipt
The police must be willing to drop charges for tea money
The prosecution service must be willing to drop charges for tea money
The thai justice system needs to create the fear needed to extract lots of cash
King Power must not ask why it is unable to collect enough evidence to get convictions
Its clear that in thailand you have to be a very careful customer; as Lady has suggested, In thailand every time you go shopping you are risking your liberty as every shop assistant is just itching to scream ’shoplifter’ at the slightest provocation. Most of us come from places where you just go shopping to buy stuff no the adrenalin rush.
I rather think Lady’s views quite neatly sum up just why Thailand is the way it is - if you no like, then you go.
Simple really, unfortunately the millions imprisoned by their poverty don’t have the luxury of quitting the LoS and will doubtless continue to provide fodder for the rapacious police, politicians et al who prey on them. That she thinks we farang should kow tow like her own folk is really quite quaint.
for Thailand lady, yes, different place, different rule, but honesty same everywhere, right?
You do believe Thailand police and King Power cashier really?
Now Thailand police and government have reputation like Bernard Madoff already.
Now Madoff in jail. The Thai police running this scam go to jail when? The King Power cashier go to jail when? You know they will never go.
Yes, different rules for different places. In Thailand the bad people go free and helped by police.
Here is a link issued by King Power that alledgedly shows the lady pocketing a wallet…..
http://www.kingpower.com/2009/index.php#
click on the “shop lifting explanantion” link on this page
Seems the authorities have declared open season on tourists.
Here are some pictures of the Littering Scam Police.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29324583@N05/sets/72157617714418287/detail/
You may be aware that King Power have published video footage and an explanatory statement on their website which purportedly confirms that the couple did indeed steal a wallet. This so called evidence is inconclusive in my book and I very much doubt that the victims are the same people depicted on the tape. Has this already been seen by you ( AD ) and the victims?
Yes. I have seen this video and one other. Also clips from the arrest of the Irish woman. I believe the people are the same people.
Oh, really?
The woman seems younger in the video and has a distinct side parting to her hair which looks quite stylish whereas Xi in the Times photo has a centre parting to what is best described as the middle aged frumpy look. Similarly, the chap in the video has a parting from left to right whereas Ingram’s is right to left.
My wife didn’t think the women were the same either but couldn’t say why..intuition, I think.
Of course, if they admit to being the video stars then……
Unfortunately the poster Lady is now posting on The Sunday Times her drivel. It is totally incomprehensible and if you read it a few times without getting a headache only shows her ignorance, inability to speak English and her apparent dislike of foreigners. It actually reinforces some of the poster’s messages and opinions. I am amazed they can even post such a language challenged individuals remarks. It is somewhat apparent she has a chip on her shoulder and could have a serious drinking problem. Her attitude, I guess, is sort of “Som Nom Na” for all westerners in trouble here regardless of their innocence or guilt. Typical moron.
Is the FCO reading your blog? I posted here on 30/6/09 about their inadequate travel advisory and lo, on 2/7/09, they updated their website to include a warning about shopping at Swampy!
The bottom line in Thailand is that if you have enough money, you can buy your way out of the justice system. Murderers have mysteriously made it back to European safe havens without a passport, providing enough largesse is spread around.
Although I’m no fan of King Power’s, it strikes me that they may well just be doing what the legal system in Thailand always does: Milks the farang! But I’m yet to be convinced of the innocence of these people. With the inebriated state of a lot of foreigners going through that airport, they could do better business than a couple a week, surely?
Having said that, it’s petty theft and should be treated by the Thais accordingly. One thing that is known is that even for Thais, such cases can take months to come to court, which most foreigners on their way home cannot afford to spend in Thailand, hence their eagerness to cough up.
If you recall the drunken Australian woman who stole the barmat from a Patong bar, then proceeded to insult the police before offering the bribe and so on, it was only pressure from (in my book, naively) sympathetic Aussies and the resultant government pressure that led to her speedy conviction. She even got away with the Governor paying her fine!
So be careful unless you have the patience to hang around in Bangkok for a few months.
On the bright side, I assume that if they’re the ones dragging it out, you don’t have to pay for an overstay on your visa as well, do you? But then again, This Is Thailand…!
Good account Andrew, as always.
However, perhaps it’s best to also present the 2 links from KP (which in fairness came out after your initial account)
Wallets case:
http://www.kingpower.com/2009/popup/pop_case2.html
Cigars case:
http://www.kingpower.com/2009/popup/pop_case1.html
I’m no fan of KP (dubious associations with Mr Thaksin and now Mr Newin) but balance is due regardless.
Balance: Agreed and done. Can’t see anything wrong with the cigar thing though. Looks like it has been presented to him. Its not as if he is going though his bags and at the same time planning to steal something. The first video does not look good though.
However you will notice that I have stated throughout that there is no evidence to suggest Kingpower are in on the scam, only the statement of Stephen Ingram quoting the Sri Lankan. Further I have not judged whether the Irish woman, or the British couple are guilty or not guilty both in this report and a subsequent one. I indeed stated ‘I do not know’.
I am merely reporting their claims that they did not steal and also King Powers claims that they have solid evidence that they did.
The major issue is the ’shakedown’ which seems to be pretty much accepted. I do not know what cash, if any at all, Dr. Norris paid before leaving the country, apart from her bail.
I think a lot of people, probably mainly foreigners in Thailand who know a little bit of the history, have attacked King Power because for a long time they may not have been enamoured with the company, its prices, and the airport monopoly. And monopoly is an ugly word to many foreigners who associate monopolies with corruption.
The British Embassy advisory worries me because I often pick up something then wander around looking for something else…although I seem to recall staff do sort of follow you around.
The King Power letter suffers from too much drama. The guards can’t resist making themselves the heroes. So the cunning foreign thieves changed their clothes and split, but the guards still found them! The clever thief disposed of the evidence but the even more clever guards saw through that! This sounds like a bragging story.
The video proves nothing, not even who is filmed looking at things in the shop. How anyone can identify faces based on this video is beyond me.
Consider the following:
The money involved (half a million baht) is a lot in Thailand. What if police give kickbacks to security guards who hand over “shoplifters” for blackmail? That would make good business sense. What if workers in duty free shops also get rewards for turning in “thieves”? What if the temptation for the people involved is too great, if there is not enough real thieves, to create some by manipulating the receipt to make them look guilty?
Wallet on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbEN13z9Be0
Look’s like shop lifting to me,and by their body movement’s both know what they were doing.
http://www.kingpower.com/2009/popup/pop_case2.html
^ Agree, looks like theft if the video surveillance is of the said couple. If so, no sympathy for them although that does not excuse the extortion tactics (by whom?) used afterwards. Perhaps a case of all parties being in the wrong.
KP claims that the customers changed their clothes to elude security.
Am I the only who suspects that KP’s wardrobe department didn’t have suitable clothes to match what the suspects were wearing when they were captured?
Thank you for your comment on my bad English writing,Andrew,farang and Jack;as I always introduce myself before running in to any writing is Im Thai–you know what– it is always like this which I could not help to bear the comment of my bad writing. Since I have posted my last thoughts with real bad feeling,I would like to apologize that I could not control myself and I could not harmonize with you properly.
I did not read the replies for a while because I left Thailand for business to Italy and just came back.
I need to insist that I don’t hate farang but, I dont have to adore all what they say or do. Every place on this small round planet has bad and good things–the coin has two sides. Im sorry to tell that since my German husband left me(with go go bar girls in BKK) with 3 children in my arms 7 years ago,I have learnt a lot about bad and good and how to be me. I did not speak even a word of English or German–I fought till my business growing up ALONE with 3 kids because daddy is now in jail for drug with his new ladies.
I will not say again here since I know that I can not write better and can not say anything against here but sorry for the primary school level of my education with less than 5 years of English practice, I could not do better.
Turning 38 year old is too old to change.
Again I would agree that law is there everywhere–difference kinds of law presentation ( I got to travel to many difference places/contries a year–I know how to stay low profile and humble enough not to kick the eye of big guys)—- the big guy or the people who enforce the law is very important one,I will not agree that the develop contries will have only good cops like someone mentioned and our country will not have only bad cops.
I would have my assistant transfered me the money to Italy and let play game withdraw it out on the departure days and came back to Thailand to present to international press with big story like I did faced with the group of cops ( or group of bad guys–may not be policemen),then lets see what will happen especially if it was happen in to be Italy!!!!!!!!.
I still respect all your guys opinions but that does not mean I can not be myself–I know already that now I can not come back here just because Im not agree and I’m too different–I talk on behalf of my contry too much and I have unacceptable writing skill.
I will say again; I prefer to listen to second party at first– especially I’m mommy to 3 kids so I always have to listen both incredible difference stories all the time.
Give me some space to share mine.
Other thing is I never drink,so I never talk like drinking problem lady.
Good bye (next time please open your mind for story from local people –you will get some diff things not just swimming along just your group–it is always charming of farang who always listen,but may be I’m in the wrong web)
Memo. Lady: I have corrected a few spelling and use of language errors but have not cut anything from this post. Your opinion is welcome. AD
Only if the couple took a wallet and deliberately left the shop without paying would it be shoplifting. The video does not show that. It is unclear who these two are are, it is unclear if they took anything from the self without putting it back, and finally the video does not show them leave with stolen goods in their possession. It can’t show that even if it happened, the video quality is too low and the camera coverage is too limited.
By their own admission, the King Power guards did not find stolen goods on the couple when they later searched them outside of the shop.
So where is the evidence?
Lady. No need to apologise and I would not be so rude as to make any comment about your English.
I do not think anybody is saying there is no corruption in other countries and all developed country police are good.
This story paints a picture of systematic corruption which occurs daily all over the country and has led to local enterprise close by the airport.
So sorry you picked a duff foreign husband though the chances of success are greater if you pick one abroad rather than a ‘local’ one.
I cant help but thinking he may have been duff from the first day but you did not realise.
You are absolutely right to say there is good and bad everywhere.
But if you got wrongfully arrested in Italy and gave an international press conference here how many journalists do you think would turn up?
And if you gave a press conference to the Thai press how many would turn up?
May I assure you that when people in power and otherwise do bad things in, say the UK, they get full and proper press attention within the limitations of the law. (and sometimes outside them!)
I take it no press complained when your husband was jailed.
I guess the solution is to not in King Power then (not that I do anyway to be honest)!!
Dear Lady,
I am sorry you were offended. But I am sure you will get over it (….)
Indeed you don’t have to adore all what farang say or do. Mind you, most people posting on this board seem to have a respect for logic. You received criticism not because you are Thai but (because of what you said).
(Edits in parenthesis. Sorry Jack)
There should be clearer warnings ( advisories) issued about Thailand. One has to watch the libel laws of course but while they perhaps can not be too hard hitting they should not be too soft either. Tell it as it is. Khun Don made a similar point but then he does not live here. His friends that do tend to soft peddle so make no impact.
You, Andrew, seem to have a balance. Tell it as it is. Watch the libel laws. Put both points of view. Maintain your moral standards. Call a spade a spade.
So Lady wants us to cut the criminal classes and their police hangers-on some slack. Precisely what has allowed them to infest the country in the first place. The powers-that-be here (and their brain-dead ultra-nationalist apologists) have a continual habit of penalising the innocent for the sins of the conniving rich & powerful. In effect, the rest of us are continually set up as the fall-guys of those who always think they are above the law - a sort of modern-day slavery.
I don’t imagine for one minute that all the victims of this scam were entirely blameless. However, the fact of the matter is that shit often happens in and around King Power shops. If King Power wants customers, it had better make sure that its security systems are also there to ensure the safety of its customers. Their current attitude seems to be that they don’t really care whether those who take the rap are innocent, guilty or not. And as long as they allow policemen to take arrested people to dodgy hotels, they will continue to enjoy a bad reputation. Thus, KP’s attrocious rep is entirely deserved.
UPDATE relevant to recent posts:
I have asked King Power what they thought of what happens to people after they are arrested. They were clearly surprised by the documents issued to the Brtish couple saying there was no case to answer. They have declined to comment on this or Thai police action. This was expected, nevertheless I was a little surprised, perhaps because I apply my own standards, and this is Thailand.
The fact is that this sort of situation could happen in any police station in the country. The system as it operates, is the only system Thailand has and King Power have to operate under this system. And there are worse cases.
In relation to the videos I have been in touch with Stephen Ingram. He states that the videos do not implicate either Xi Lin or himself. He made a statement off the record, which of course I cannot repeat. He will, I believe, make a statement on the record at a later date.
As poster Mr.Richard Barrow has stated there was a time when people went through the court system and went to jail in Samut Prakarn.
This no longer appears to be the case, he says.
King Power say they are not involved and I have to take them at their word.
Of course I am not going to be knocked down with a feather if it later transpires a member of security WAS involved.
King Power’s Managing director expressed the hope that he would see an article which was ‘at least positive, not only to us, but also to our country as a whole’.
This is a news and news blog site. Not a pro-or anti-Thai site. There is plenty of stuff up here about ‘bad foreigners’.
I can only summarise the case as this. People, whether guilty or not, are being shaken down for large sums of money after being arrested by King Power security at Bangkok airport. A clear accusation says statements are changed in the police station to suite the result. I am not unused to these things.
However all the matters above provide a negative image for Thailand.
While it is part of my job to alert people to these sort of things, I am not the solution.
As no solution has as yet been offered, one must assume the status quo.
Or as the French say ‘Plus ca change’. ‘Gang warily’. Be careful out there.
Well if a very wealthy man who is a personal friend of Prince Charles can’t indicate to the Royal Thai Police that he expects a more professional and less corrupt form of policing, what hope is there for the rest of us serfs? Obviously Vichai is a man who thinks that all there is to business is playing polo abroad.
What happened to the humorous cosmetics blog, Andrew? You seem to have pulled it. Truthfully, I don’t think that any of the posters here were in enough of a light-hearted mood to fully appreciate it or comment on it. But then again we are largely a defanged lot - having long ago realised that almost everything local is a sham over which we have less than zero influence. Whereas I’m sure Khun Vichai and his King Power men can cut up as rough as any local when face is lost.
Inert Serf: Yes, I had second thoughts and pulled it on the grounds actually that this is quite a serious subject and while there are funny aspects to it, a lot of people would probably not appreciate the humour.
However I have put up an extended picture caption on the Irish post under a jar of ‘Bobbi Brown’ eye-liner says that you would pay less in high street stores and even at Bloomingdales in New York than at King Power, Bangkok. But then again as one poster has pointed out here : “You dont get the same adrenalin rush” as you do at Suvarnabhumi.
I remember once buying an overpriced paperback book from a departure-gate stall that was almost certainly yet another offshoot of the King Power Empire. I don’t remember any adrenaline rush. More of an intense feeling that I had set myself up to be duped. But I suppose that’s entirely natural for the offspring of one who grew up attending scottish presbyterian - although not actually in the country itself. Some of us live in the very real world of acutely small pleasures and ever-so slightly more vivid paranoia attacks. That saidd, one also occasionally gets a very slight buzz out of taking the mick out of the swinging dicks on the local scene. Probably far too subtle for most of them to really notice, as they indulge with their latest monomaniac obsessions.
[quote]
after being arrested by King Power security at Bangkok airport.
[/quote]
can you clarify this ? whee they arrested by Airport police or by private security ?
The main thing I would like to find out from this case and the others is if innocent people are being targeted - If you have purposefully crossed the line and you end up being extorted for large amounts of money to maintain your freedom I don’t have any sympathy .
The corruption in this country has to be dealt with at the top first and the only result from this case will be a Sri Lanken losing his status as an advisor/interpreter.
I would have thought if you compared the statistics of arrests for shoplifting in duty free at Singapore and Hong Kong Airports you could maybe get an indication that it was happening more frequently here in Thailand which would maybe indicate that there is a scam happening to implicate innocent people.
From the video posted by King Power it appears that the pair did steal a wallet. Even-though they were not found to be in procession of the wallet - later found near the toilets - the video is enough for me. The ‘extortion’ part with the police etc is troubling but the pair brought this on themselves.
http://www.kingpower.com/2009/popup/pop_case2.html#
MJ
Hi, I’m a Thai working in retail and have dealt with many farangs expats shoplifting in my shop.
It is standard procedure to try to “fine” the shoplifter as much as possible in lieu of not taking them to court/charging them or putting them in the hand of the police.
Most places it’s 10 times the price of the items stolen.
We have a standard letter in both Thai and English for the shoplifter to sign admitting that they have stolen the items and agree to pay the fine in exchange for not getting reported to the police by us.
However,I believe that this practice is illegal, or in the wrong spirit of the law at least, since criminal cases in Thailand are not settleable and must be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
You cannot settle the case and not go to court, ie a rape victim cannot settle out of court. The police who see a crime in progess but failed to prosecute are neglectful.
In practice, even the police will go along with us, assisting in “arresting” , searching the shoplifter detaining, holding them and letting them go once we have obtained the “fine”. Mind you, we have a low rank police in our pay openly as we hire them to sit it in their off-duty hours, and it does help to smooth things over with the station.
The only way I can see this practice being legal is if we have a sign up at the door saying that as a condition of entry shoplifter must pay 10 times the amount stolen. I have seen that some shops do have a sign saying that they fine 10x and also that the police will prosecute, which is just plain wrong in my opinion.
I’ve had cases where I had to escort the shoplifter to get money wired in from Western Union and it felt wrong, like I’m extorting the guy, even though it was a clear cut caught red-handed case, it felt wrong, but the guy tried his best to come up with the cash, getting in debt by getting family back home overdrawn. He knew the alternative of a Thai prison was far worse.
Personally, I would prefer to bust a couple of kneecaps and call it even, but I understand that the businesses have to recoup the losses when they can, I have also experienced the alternative of having the police file a charge against the shoplifter, which required me to go down to the station, hang around until the captain in charge showed up, make a statement, and then have the police were grilling me even though I represent the victim, and filling in documents, which needed to be signed by our directors in order to go to court. The whole process takes a couple of days and a few trips down the station, compared to at most waiting half a day for the shoplifter to come up with the cash (once we held a guy’s passport ransom until he came up with the cash) so I went along, it was the better solution, we get no resolution going to court, and no satisfaction in using violence.
However a system such as these is not very transparent and open to abuse as seems to be happening at the Airport.
However, I must commend Kingpower that they manage to concoct a public response at all, most Thai companies wouldn’t know how to respond let alone be so fluent in their language. I wonder why the times didn’t bother to publish the companies’ response
Although I’ve seen lots of expat scums came through my door, I really felt bad about scams in general and this recent case had me thinking a lot.
The bribe system does meet the shortfall in the sluggish Thai legal system, as what you would call an ‘elite’ Thai I do and have paid my way out of things like speeding tickets and it is a norm to me, but forcing this on innocent tourists is a bit far and rather short sighted. People at a backwater police station think they can do this and not be noticed. How long can they keep this up?
I’ve watched the CCTV about 10 times and it looks as if she DOES put a purse in her bag. Am I seeing things or what?
Interesting post from Bob.
He is clearly embarassed by the x10 system and refers to it as extortion. His example of accompanying a tourist to get the money says it all.
There is of course an anti corruption commission in Thailand and extortion , though accepted as Bob says, is against the law. It should not be condoned.
AND the ‘one solution fits all situations’ quick fix has served Thailand very badly in all sorts of fields in recent decades. In politics it has led to coup after coup. In the tourist industry it has similarly led to PR disaster after PR disaster. It’s time to start thinking beyond the solution of least resistance!
Thank you for the insight, Bob. I am curious about what happens to the 10x money you get from the shoplifter. Does it go to the shop owner to compensate for shoplifts in general? Does it go to security guards or your on-site policemen? Do YOU get any of it if you help catch a thief?
Matt,
I looked at the video 20 times and find it inconclusive. I do not conclusively see the wallet disappear into their bags.
They also do not look like the same people in the Times photo. I have no idea when the Times photo was taken, i.e., after they got back from BKK or was it something they gave to the Times. The hair style on the woman is different and she looks younger in the store footage. You never see the face clear enough of either person. Regarding the accusation that they “changed clothes” and dumped the wallet in the bathroom, is there security footage of one of them going into the bathroom where the wallet is found? Is there security footage showing them going into their respective bathrooms and exiting wearing the clothes they had on when they were arrested? If so, we have not seen it. I am sure King Power has more video footage, and viewed with high resolution equipment, perhaps it may show that it really is those people, and the wallet really does disappear. I decline to speculate. But based on what has been presented by King Power, I would say the case has not been proven. You can believe what you want to.
Hopefully the facts will come out if and when the UK couple sue. Hopefully they will be compensated if the facts show they were innocent. TIT.
There is no procedure for obtaining compensation or costs under Thai law
I hope they quietly get back their 8000 gbp. Under the face system the only way for them to get it would be quietly. The more fuss the longer it drags on.
Expect a low key statement.
Good luck to the Ingrams and the Irish lady and lets hope the authorities take note of the furore they have caused
The 10x money goes back towards shoplifted goods, this doesn’t always cover it as it is rarely that the shop will catch a shoplifter.
There’s a token reward for the staff who manages to catch any shopliter, a couple of hundred baht, nothing much but for a minimum wage staff but it can liven up their day and does encourage vigilance.
Some shops do encourage their staff with bigger rewards though, I’ve heard thousands of baht being paid out.
This could encourages the kind of behaviour alleged at the Airport.
On a side note now.
A few (well 5-10) years ago there was plenty of case where security guards would, in the process of searching a (mostly Thai) customers’ bag drop a few items in, this made story in the papers for a while and now people seems to know their rights better now.
Normally the Thais are used to doing what they are told and would submit to a seach easily, unless they are prolific shoplifter, those tends to know their rights pretty well and would only yield to a police captain.(technically, there need to be a captain present at searches or checkpoints at all time, once we had a shoplifter being surrounded by half the police from the station waiting for the captain to arrives)
A security guard or store staff has no legal power to stop and search customers, that’s why we have active policeman onsite or on call. There’s no such thing as citizens’ arrest. and the police can only conduct a search of the person where there are obvious and immediate evidence such as store staff saw an item being placed on the shoplifter person’s or bag. A cctv footage from previous day or week where the shoplifter had taken good is insufficient for the police to stop and seach the same shoplifter, unless the store had filed a case at the local station (which is too much work) at best we could only confront and bar them. The police or staff had to see the shoplifter commit the act inorder to search, but it could be argued that seeing an item goes missing after a person has left the store is sufficient ground.
And in the case where normal rights does not apply, the potential for abuse is much greater.
An advice to bribing in Thailand is dont’ do it unless you know what you are doing; while it does save time and hassle There’s no guarantee that the party wouldn’t reneg the deal and turn you in later.
In the case that you are innocent, suffering through court procedure and spending in holding cell with no compensation is tough luck.
Bob: Thanks for you comments by the way but I will take issue with you one one point and that is your comment: “You cannot settle the case and not go to court, ie a rape victim cannot settle out of court”
Strictly speaking that is true. But there is a system in place all over Thailand in which suddenly no evidence is presented to the court and the case is dismissed as being without evidence even though police in many cases have reconstructed the crimes or crime scenes for TV!
This has happened in a lot of cases of arrests of paedophiles. They may be guilty or not guilty. But they are almost all shaken down.
In terms of reporting however they have a piece of paper which says they are not guilty and can thus can sue the pants off anyone who suggests otherwise.
Thankyou for raising such an important point about cases being dropped. As often, from the date of arrest until the court hearing would often be weeks if not months away, by the time the court hearing came the media would have lost interest except for a few western reporters like yourself.
As I’ve had said in the cases that I’ve dealth with, although criminal cases are not supposed to be settled out of court, there are various way which you can sidestep the process like you’ve mentioned. There are too many things happening behind closed door. The media can help by being vigilant and keep a spotlight on until justice is served.
Andrew,
can you please confirm what videos you have actually seen please. You said that you have seen one other - what did you mean by that? Have you seen a different video involving Ingram and Xi than we have? Have you seen a better quality video than we have seen on the King Power website?
I wouldn’t be prepared to identify the couple from the poor quality video that I have seen, so I’d be interested to know why you believe that they are the same couple.
Keep up the good work
Loong: I think King Power have put their best shots up on the internet now, although the British video seemed like a pretty good shot. I hope I did not mislead you. The ‘videos’ I saw were in fact printed snapshots from the video of Dr.Norris. What I saw did not seem to implicate her, but I of course may not have seen everything.
I asked her if there was anything else. Not that she had seen, she said. I have been expecting King Power to put the video of Dr. Norris up, but it has not appeared…..unless you know better.
Thanks for your reply Andrew.
I know that you are following the 2 threads regarding this case on Thaivisa. Some posters are using your statement that you think that they are the same couple as conclusive proof that Mr Ingram and Miss Xi are shoplifters.
I really can’t see that it is at all possible to make an identification based on the video released by King Power. That’s why I would like to know if you have seen the original video, that may be better quality. If you have only seen the video on the King Power website, I really find it hard to believe that you could be sure that they are the same couple. Have you seen any other video of the couple?
This question really has nothing to do with Dr Norris, although I would be very interested to see any supporting video.
I don’t wish to be a thorn in your side, I really admire your reporting.
Bob, maybe you forgot to say what happens to the 10X “fine” money your shop gets from shoplifters?
In countries with low corruption levels guards and policemen are never given money rewards for catching wrongdoers. This is for a good reason. Give them a cash incentive and they could get too eager.
Loong: Actually I have looked at ThaiVisa a couple of times but not regularly and I am not about to post there. Never mind how somebody interprets what I have said, my take is this (and its only my take). The video of the British couple looks real enough and does appear to show a woman placing a wallet in her bag. I have also said this video is not conclusive. And for that I mean in my opinion and in a British court, but not necessarily in a Thai court.(There appears to be no video showing any further connection with this wallet) The jury is still out on this. I have asked Stephen Ingram he says there is something very odd about the video ( though he has not said what) He has not denied it his Xi Lin and himself in the video. Although to be fair he says he cannot say anything about this on the recommendation of a Human Rights Lawyer in the UK. His recounting of events and locations in the airport which they visited are not the same as the version of events presented by KP. They never changed their clothes.
Actually it appears this couple were also charged with lying to police in saying they were not married….They are not married. Their seats were not even together on the aircraft. Food for thought?
I will alert my 100,000 + readers each month to avoid KingPower stores at the airports or risk extortion and jail if the enter this trap.
wwww.stickmanbangkok.com
I have read the Blog with some interest – I will be flying out soon – Looks like my Duty Free will come from Dubai, as always – which is cheaper.
I know DBX has trolleys and baskets to put shopping in (and designated entrances/exits), does BKK? NO.
There seems to be several points in the above threads.
Ladys first anti-foreigner post said it all – Stay away. Without a worthwhile suggestion of how HER country could be improved.
Bobs post was enlightening, though with his command of English shows he is educated, so therefore not an employee, rather an employer.
My Points.
1/ King Power, seems to be an abusive monopoly who should NOT have been awarded the commissions SOLELY. The prices aren’t much cheaper than outside, in some case more – Electronics can certainly be found cheaper in MBK or elsewhere.
2/ King Power assistants. I am for and against. Unfortunately (for them), they ARE responsible collectively for losses on their shifts (As no doubt, most shopworkers are, as Bob would confirm). It therefore is easy to see why some are over-protective of stock, this may well be their total monthly sales commissions – and their wages are very base.
Though if they are found in collusion, they should be imprisoned.
If Sians eyeliner was put INTO a bag at the time of payment (paying by CC), She is being punished for the assistants sloppy negligent work.
If from reading and my comprehension – The Purse/Wallet was not removed from the sales-zone, how could this be stealing. IF the KP employees had not seen the item paid for – they may well want to call in security (as above).
But WTF was an item valued at a months wages (for a Thai shop assistant) be left without some form of security? KP have ONLY themselves left to blame.
If no stolen property is found on the accused they should be released immediately, questions could be asked with the help of dialogue cards in different languages – also as Bob has, removing the need to for an interpreter – and if they is not a native (English or Thai) speaker how accurately will the police Q & A be reported?
3/ I have no words for Mr Bigs or Mafiosi – it seems as if the police have let the situation escalate for their own benefit, when it should have been stamped out.
Unfortunately…
4/ Corruption within Thailand is endemic. The police have an anti-corruption branch – I don’t know how hard they work.
My Brother in Law is a sergeant in the RT Police, I’m not sure, but believe his Take-home is between 15-20k a month. I often wonder, at that rate how I see police with new Pick-ups that would be equivalent of 2-3yrs wages….
In Thailand, it is OK to trick or short change someone out of there money – but to steal is a No No, 10times the amount is the fine rate for Thai people.
The State supports its own 2tier pricing system which is anti-foreigner – Visiting a National Park cost up to 10X as much as a national. This is sneakily done with Thai script and numerals – I had a discussion at an Aquaruim – I went into the office and asked why the Thai prices were written in Thai script – the response was …for Thai people who couldn’t read English (or Arabic numerals) to understand. So I asked how a uneducated Thai could make a phone call!
Even the Snake farm charges more – and that is supposed to be a charitable institute.
Keith/Sickman: Whoah, the jury’s out on KP, are you sure you want to go down that road? Congrats on your 100,000 readers. I’m happy with my 20.
Is it the real stickman or just someone who wants to get him in trouble? That said, I do fully appreciate that he is more than capable of doing it all for himself. Actually, Mr Stickman, I once saw the real you in action at what was supposed to be a serious establishment. ……. no comment!
Keith Summers does not have 100,000 readers.
At the old Don Muang Airport, I can move about betweeen the stalls freely and only bring the items to the checkout once everything is done, as often a few items would only be available at one place. Mind you, there are always staff around and some would ‘tail’ you instead of getting annoyed, might as well get them to carry the stuff for you to the till sometimes you can beat the qeues too.
I’m not sure how the new Airport fares as I don’t want to give KP any customs.
At most place that pays commission, department stores included, the staff would be happy to take the items to the cashier as their ID needed to be scanned in to recieve commissions, if the staff is tailing you too much, find another one, but in case that you are paying by credit card, don’t let them out of your sight(that’s another can of worm by itself).
in my experience, in order to prosecute shoplifters, they have to leave the premises, not just walking pass the till but out the door. confronting them in the store is useless as some will say that they intend to pay that. Some middle eastern shoppers aren’t familiar with the baskets or trolleys and often they will put the items in their own plastic bags to much confusion and panic around the store as it seem tha their intent is to steal.
By the way, I really am an employEE not an employeR my decisions and actions rarely affects the company’s policy at best I can try and be a change that I want to see in the world, but when it comes to the issue of shoplifting, I believe fining the perp and letting them go is the second best solution, the business get compensation, the shoplifter avoids jail time the people saves legal cost.
It might be better for the shoplifter to be found guilty in the court, but there is not motivation for them to come up with the cash and getting court to award compensation is futile.
But I must also stress that the potential for abuse is great, I could have taken the cash home instead of putting it back in the business, split it between people in the store to keep silence and never tell anyone above me that we caught a shoplifter.
Something else that totally contracdicts the Times story
quote
THAILAND: MR STEPHEN INGRAM AND MS XI LIN
Thank you for your e-mail of 29 June, about the arrest of Mr Stephen Ingram and Ms Xi Lin and the response of the British Embassy in Bangkok.
Whilst I understand your concerns, I should clarify that, in this specific case, Consular staff were in touch with police from 5am on 26 April – immediately after hearing about the arrests – and were in regular contact with both individuals during their time in detention. We offered consular support, including making representations on their behalf to the Thai authorities, and gave them the details of local lawyers who would be able to give them legal advice and represent them.
We understand that although they initially contacted a lawyer, they decided to pay a police bail to be released immediately. They expressly asked Consular staff not to raise their case with the Thai authorities. The charges against them were dropped for lack of evidence and they left Thailand on 30 April.
If and when we become aware of general threats to British Nationals travelling abroad we will take action to warn them of those threats, including through changing our travel advice. We can also raise such issues with the authorities concerned. That said, we are only aware of a handful of cases involving shoplifting offences committed by other British Nationals over the past year. None has said they were victims of extortion or kidnapping. We are in regular contact with other Embassies, and we are making enquiries to see if their nationals have encountered similar problems.
Yours ever
Meg
Meg O’Ryan | Admin Support, Mekong & Burma Team, SEAPG | Foreign and Commonwealth Office | Room E2.216 | King Charles Street | London SW1A 2AH | e-mail: Meghann.O’Ryan@fco.gov.uk | telephone: +44 20 7008 2448 | http://www.fco.gov.uk
unquote
in the light of the damning video clearly showing Mrs Lin pocketing the stolen goods, The Times has so far refused to comment on their erroneous story or to consider the follow up. The woman clearly misbehaved and the hapless husband was dragged into the malfeasance.
What happened afterwards is all too typical, but of course you fail to mention that the alternative to being held in a sleezy motel would be incarceration at the local nick (i know which i would prefer - at least they could shit in private)
Some very biased inaccurate and poor quality reporting here - what can you expect from the tabloid press
Bob
Apologies for my assumption on your professional status.
Perhaps I should have classed you as Management
Middle Eastern people walking around with Duty Frees in personal baggage. What would the Authorities in Doha or Dubai do with shoplifters then? Cut off there right hand? As per many years ago?
Lunch time O’Booze.
Thank your very much for that O’Booze. It was very helpful. Actually I have not criticised the British Embassy at all over this issue, with good reason. The Embassy are held over a barrel on cases like this. Privately they may know the best course of action, publicly they cannot say it. They do not have investigatory powers. However the Embassy was concerned enough to submit a new Travel Advisory to the FCO. The Embassy has become a whipping boy on this issue, I see from posters. I should have made it clear from the beginning that I do not share these views in this case.
The story initially appeared in the Sunday Times, which is not a tabloid by the way. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was presented, given the case’s legal complexities. People’s assumptions about what the Embassy can do sometimes surpass even what is reasonable, which they are continually telling me. However, as they know, I am not shy about criticism in the cases (I think) they fall short.
I did once see a British Embassy official give a severe dressing down to local police here ( He had obviously judged the circumstance by doing so) He saved a Briton from a prison sentence. But its not ‘de rigeur’ and never could be. He has since left the FCO though.
Finally, we all seem to hate newspapers, but we all seem to read them. Give a thought to the journalists out there who do try to help people and for whom it is a part of the ‘raison d’etre’.
PS. I see no reason why the Sunday Times need to follow up from their first story, accept with new cases. The initial article spotlighted a problem which needed to be addressed. The innocence of the couple actually is a little by the by when you look at the bigger picture. There have been over 100 cases.
Re: Thaksin and KP as mentioned above
No doubts about Thaksin giving away the concession under questionable circumstances.
But after the coup accusations and lawsuits against KP dissapeared or were quietly dropped.
So it seems well that KP managed to go along with political changes .., one indicator that Thaksin may not be connected to them any more might be that in the week before Songkran a group of Red Shirts were led by Jakraphob Penkair to the KP Headquarters on April 7 to show their disapproval towards their abusive Monopoly and their company name - not onlz them might regard as inappropriate in times of Lese Majeste….
Being charged with “Night time theft” seems to strongly indicate some scum, as in the case of the Great Aussie Beer Mat Theft.
It really exists in Thai Law but it seems not to be enforced in the count of normal regular daily ( or better nightly) Thai Crime news reports ( Just ask your Thai friends and relatives about it, it’s highly likely they have never heard about someone charged with this stuff)
While this paragraph might make some sense in curbing night crime activities, it looks at least strange in places mostly crowded with activity and well lit around the clock like Airport Transit Facilities and Patong’s Barstrip.
And for crossing lines between shops - the normal reaction in more then a hundred cases at the same place would be to put up some signs or at least fix a piece of paper stating what consequences taking stuff out of this area implies…
Dear Andrew,
I don’t know how you do it. How do you uncover this story? Do you fear for your life when you expose powerful people for being crooks? I mean this is Thailand after all
Old Snake Head: I dont think I am going to go down the speculative political road here especially with the use or words like scumbag etc. Post deleted. Sorry
Tukkae: organised crime and night time theft. I think the general inference is the more terror applied the more will be paid out.
Can you update us, Andrew, on the next steps the Ingrams need to take to resolve this issue. Or is it likely to be sorted less publicly?
Stephen Ingram told me this week he is in touch with lawyers and is planning to return to prosecute for the return of funds. In which case it will be in public. If he does not the case will just disappear in the mist I guess.
This thread has taken me quite a while to get through and I have found most of it to be very accurate and in some cases even enlightening. I am a Thai national (female) and though over the past 30 or more years I haven’t spent a lot of time here, I am entirely familiar with what goes on within the halls of what is generously termed the ‘Criminal Justice’ “system”. I have been involved in several campaigns to get the rot cut from the apples in that barrel but it is like trying to teach a brick to swim. There is simply too much money involved (literally billions of baht per year) and a lot of that money eventually trickles to the top. I purchased a book a few weeks ago titled “Send Them To Hell” that exposes what happens pretty clearly and without pulling any punches. It might be a good idea for anyone considering a trip to the land of smiles (and many of them, like mine, are genuine) to read that before finalising their arrangements. My husband is a Falang, and of course we are constantly being ripped off in one manner or another, but the time is rapidly approaching when we will be leaving it all behind, and as far as I am concerned that moment can not arrive quickly enough.
In fairness, I don’t feel that I spend my entire life being ripped off here. But to acheive that state you usually have to wind your own neck in to the point where most local hoodlums, their uniformed brethren and the dog-eat-dog farang business community hardly know you even exist. That isn’t exactly conducive to having a good lifestyle. Online ranting by locally-based expats is undoubtedly a symptom of that cabin fever. It is also an outlet for all those bottled-up emotions that we spend so much of our time suppressing. Show me a farang here who spends a lot of his time getting rat-arsed in public, and it probably indicates he is either a kamikaze pilot and/or is able to afford to pay for someone to mop up after his indiscretions.
I would welcome anyone’s point of view regarding the video evidence that seems to me to show quite clearly that xi lin took the wallet around to the other side of the counter, placed it on another shelf, then picked it up and put it in her bag. apparently the couple then seperated, changed clothing and sat separately in a coffee shop, when security aproached her, the man got up and walked to the toilets, followed by security, who then found the wallet dumped in the bin outside the toilets, any ideas as to how it got there?
There is no clear identification that they are the same people. KP states there is “facial evidence” Where? I don’t see any in the video. As for the so-called theft by the individuals (whoever they are) in the video, it is unclear. Plus, where is the time stamp showing the date and times of the incident? Add to the fact that by KP’s own admission, the stolen merchandise was not found on their person, but in a bathroom. Plus they “changed clothes”. Where is the evidence of that?
Perhaps King Power has better evidence and they are not showing it on the internet, but I decline to speculate. Therefore, the case KP has presented is weak.
BTW, I am sure everyone who has been following this case has seen Jonathan Head’s BBC story in today’s news. So this case is going to get more exposure. Hopefully if the Thai PM goes abroad and has a press conference, the reporters asking him about this instead of what he wants to talk about. Better yet, they should ask him about this when he has press conferences in Phuket.
Here are the 3 videos from KP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HCbof5nceM
I saw the link from Spray Paint. Just how stupid does King Power think we are? They are pathetic, and perhaps that is being charitable.
More likely….. (self-censored)
I said several days ago that this may be quietly resolved without loss of face. On another forum there is a post suggesting that is happening.
But let’s see
However this is resolved, it will be done the Thai way. Let the matter drop. Refund the money. Business as usual. No apologies or desire to change the thai way of doing things.
International pressure certainly provoked a lot of television coverage on thai TV this morning.
I have just spent an hour or so reading your article and most of the comments. I have also viewed the KP CCTV and carried out quite a bit of research into the case of the Ingram’s.
This comment looks at the KP role in this case and does not address what allegedly happened to the couple outside the airport.
Based on the “evidence” presented in the Ingram case (from all sources)that is in the public domain my opinion is that if this case had been brought to the attention of the UK police say at HR that arrests and further investigation would have followed. So why do I say that, well to fully understand you need to take a look at what constitutes theft or attempted theft because make no mistake about it shoplifting is theft.
A theft occurs at the point when a person dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving another of it. There is actually no need to leave premises to prove theft. Its just a common practice to nullify the claim that the person intended to pay for it later.
So putting a stores property into your bag before leaving a shop can be theft or attempted theft. Obviously the investigators need to prove intent, this is done by questioning the person, viewing CCTV evidence(looking at the persons actions)and interviewing other witnesses.
Personally I would like to hear the Thai police take on this case before making judgments on guilt, what evidence they have and whether there was actually a prima-facie case of theft under Thai law.
If indeed there is a prima-facie case of theft against the Ingram’s then it is up to the Thai authorities how they deal with that within the jurisdiction of Thai law.
On the evidence presented I can see nothing to suggest that KP acted improperly.
Just one final thought, perhaps its just not Thai people that like to save face.
Ex-Old Bill: Judging by British law as you have tagged yourself with the British slang for police the prosecution has to prove that the defendant intended to ‘permanently deprive’ the owner of the property. This is unlikely if the person is still in the store and could be browsing for other stuff. That is why in all shoplifting cases in the UK the perpetrators are stopped outside the premises.
Anyway its not relevant here because, you do not seem to have noticed, all the alleged ‘perps’ were indeed stopped outside the premises.
This story is actually not about King Power but what happens in the police station afterwards.
At the moment King Power are publicly defending their position (in the case of the British couple) but the couple have documents issued by the Prosecutor to Police and Police to Immigration police stating that there is no evidence they have committed an offence in Thailand.
So how do they get around that without attacking police or the courts? Rather difficult in the Thai style of things.
If you look at the other cases, for instance the Irish case on this site, I believe there are serious questions to be asked as to the quality of the evidence.
King Power however have drawn flak which might be rightly directed elsewhere. But nobody is going to do it, I suspect. Hence the status quo.
Wait a while.
Andrew thanks for taking the time to respond to my earlier comment. I was aware where you original post was aimed and I think I made it clear that I was looking at these issues from a KP perspective.
Since several commenter’s have raised the issue of the British couple I felt there was a need to add a little balance about what constitutes theft since in one comment I noticed the term “petty” used.
Theft is hardly a “petty” crime wherever it is committed and certainly back home it could be punished with imprisonment of up to 6 months and/or a fine of up to £5000 if tried at a magistrates court. Which actually doesn’t sound too different to Thailand (see RB comment)if you are a foreigner.
However I have no wish to take this thread off course and I will take your advice to wait and see.
Old Bill: No problem. Theft is very serious here - sometimes more than murder.
Petty Theft is actually a legal designation as to the value of the goods that were stolen. In contrast to “Grand theft”.
From the wiki (which means it must be true
“Grand theft generally consists of the theft of something of value over $400 (it can be money, labor or property), while petty theft is the default category for all other thefts.”
Of course this for the USA, and other countries will likely have a different value of demarcation, assuming they make the same distinction.
Andrew, any suggestions on where I can continue to follow this story? I have been unable to find any further reporting on it and I’m interested to see the end result, what happens to Tony, etc.