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In the ‘Brits subjected to ’Clockwork Orange’ attack story once again I am the bearer of bad tidings about violent crime in Thailand but in this case it is foreigners doing unspeakable things to foreigners.
This is not an attack on Thailand, although once again, I believe this demonstrates that , no matter how many foreign funded courses they attend, Thai police are still not mentally geared up to properly handle cases involving woman and children, or sex crime in general.
Once again George’s cowboys at Thaivisa.com have saddled up again on the forum and are on their ’sensational journalism’ gig. But I have to say the story which appeared in today’s ‘Daily Mail’ only touches upon the real horror of what this couple claimed to have happened to them. And this is a story which I suspect has not ended.
I gave the story the ‘Clockwork Orange’ tag, because this incident reminded me of a scene in that film. The film of course is a bit historical and this may not mean much to someone under thirty!
Anyway despite many well publicised cases in Thailand, rapes of foreigners are more often committed by foreigners here. Tourism breeds contempt and this latest incident will not do anything to dispel that. I feel a certain resignation both among the police and Embassy officials about what foreigners will do next.
That means I suspect that often genuine victims may not get the full counselling they need.
Anyone who has dealt with victims of date rape drugs will know the absolute agony and torment these people go through. It will be with them for the rest of their lives.
I believe the couple. People on Koh Chang believe the couple. But to ask the couple to go through a court ordeal in Thailand…well that’s a different matter. Police here often do not treat victims with kid gloves. The two Britons have exposed themselves to a certain extent. That shows considerable bravery. But all they want to do is warn other people.
They had after all just been around the world and the worst thing that happened to them was committed by a sneak thief in Ecuador.
In this case the suspected drug was ‘Dormicum’. Thats a generic form of ‘midazolam’ which is used in operating theatres by surgeons who want their patients to co-operate during surgery. It is also given to Death Row prisoners in the United States before execution.
So I guess if it makes people feel happy to be executed its going to have a similar affect on a woman who is subjected to unspeakable acts in a bungalow on Koh Chang.
Legal provisons dictate that I cannot tell you much more than what a nice, level head couple these people are. I have to change the names, ages, and be very vague about their occupations.
Whats more there are photographs. Photographs taken by the couple before this happened. And without doubt photographs taken by these low-lifes themselves when it was happening.
Despite their ordeal they were very complimentary about Thailand and feel the country is generally safe certainly a lot safer than some South American countries they have recently had to negotiate.
And why indeed should not they feel safe striking up a conversation with an English girl and a group of Frenchman at a beach bar in Thailand?
Not suprisingly ‘Richard’ wanted to get ‘Susan’ home as soon as possible. He has told the Embassy he will return to complete his statement and both will give evidence should any arrests be made. They feel concerned about the justice system and want DNA tests on materials conducted separately by the Home Office in the UK. Yesterday (Saturday) they submitted themselves for medical and forensic examination at the BNH in Bangkok. They also liaised with the British Embassy
They are also coming to terms that in due course their identities will have to be revealed if they are to pursue this case through the courts here.
Once again I have to agree with you, Andrew. Some of the retards that populate the ThaiVisa forum are the lowest you could ask for. The way thy have trivialised and demeaned this story that no doubt has been horrifying for the victims is nothing short of disgusting…
That drug is described as having a half life of 2 hours and is considered a short acting drug. It does have further hang-over effects but I couldn’t see it keeping them in bed for 2 days as reported. There’s lots of date rape style drugs around, it doesn’t sound like that one was used.
DaveM: That was only the considered opinion of the doctor at the clinic on White Sands Beach in Koh Chang who indicated that he had dealt with instances of recent use of it. We are never actually going to know what drug was used.
Corrected Dec 7 09: Scotland Yard say it may well be possible to detect what was in the drug from hair root samples.
I live on Koh Chang and feel sick at the way this vile attack has been treated on the forums in particular Thai Visa and Teakdoor. Why do these idiots think that the couple would possibly make this up and for what gain.
I don’t see how you link this film to the attack, as there is only one scene which suggests that a girl is drugged, yet the main focus is not the drugging but the fight that breaks out between two gangs.
There aren’t any other instances of drugs being used prior to rape.
Tom W: Its no big deal Tom. Hardly a point worth arguing over. Clockwork Orange was a film which was essentially about a gang who used their power to gratuitously abuse people sexually and otherwise. There was a notable scene in which a woman was gang raped in front of her husband. This is what is claimed happened on Koh Chang
Steve: This invariably happens whenever somebody picks up on a story I do.
- unless of course the moderators themselves are so thick they cannot see what has been going on, which maybe a possibility.
So far I have identified two posters on these threads and am pretty sure of a third, who I have exposed in stories in the past, who have started off the ’scum’ posts.
Then the rest follow like sheep.
In the two cases I identified, one was a convicted paedophile who was deported from Thailand after I caught him teaching in a school. The second was a person who was highlighted in a story I wrote for his activities in a little club called Alt Sex Fetish Orientals.
The sheep bleat for a while. Then when they realise the story actually is true and sensible posters come to my support they go quiet.
(They have gone quiet now as a Scotland Yard Project Sapphire Team is treating this case seriously)
Then along comes the next horror story and they start bleating again. Some of these guys seem to stay up all night to do it too!
The moderators on ThaiVisa are more concerned about the number of posts they get than in personal attacks.
George at ThaiVisa.com does not give me a right of reply, because I named one of his moderators (and his occupation in Pai)who was posting innaccurate information about the murder of a Canadian in Pai last year, although yesterday
he wiped the ThaiVisa thread of a lot of posts at the request of my colleague Andrew Chant.
Up until then he appears to have given his moderators carte blanche to allow all the malicious posts through.
This is Thailand after all
Posters have also noted that some of the malicious posters joined the same day to post these comments.
I don’t take hostages but if people were to ask any of the best journalists here what they thought of me they would get a different story. I dont mean guys from Pattaya papers though I am not without fans down there
Not everyone that reads Thaivisa posts on that site and there are many sensible posters who make valid contributions.
Many support you as they know the job you do.
Moderation is a problem but the site exists to make money and I imagine mods know which side of the bread is buttered. ( there are also some decent mods)
(I accept all your points here Newbie. Its the fact that the mods continually allow this to happen which concerns me. -AD)
Just wondering why there appears to be nothing in the Thai press about this story?
Apparently the couple went to the Thai police, who presumably would have been keen to pass the story on to their press contacts. Typical Thai newspaper piece: “Sergeant Somchai (with a long list of all his ranks and titles) rushed to the scene” etc. Would imagine the Thai Rath would cover a story like this, especially since it was farang on farang crime and doesn’t cast any Thais in a bad light.
Every time I glance at a story on ThaiVisa, all I seem to see are irrelevant comments, rude comments and even down right disgusting comments. It takes its news from The Nation which shouldn’t even qualify as a newspaper and then the die hard posters hack about with trivial comments at everyones’ expense. The ratio of drivel to useful and informed contribution (as is the goal of any forum) is around 10:1 as I see it on ThaiVisa and those that advertise appear to soon leave as I am sure it is not a positive for any business to be associated with the attitude of the posters and mods (not all but most). I see a need for a useful forum in Thailand but not the one that exists right now. Just my opinion.
Silus: Well there has been little investigation as yet. They do not normally call a press conference until they have something to announce. Dont think they will be pushing for publicity on this.
I’m not sure how many Thai reporters are on Koh Chang.
Hi Andrew,
I admire much of your work but the ’shaping’ of this article is beneath your whimsy (with due respect). Made the following comment on TV who opportunistically ‘lampreyed’ on your lead:
———
A reporter got his ‘pound of flesh’ (=cha-ching) and TV got theirs by sending an opportunistic mass email for desired ‘page impressions’ by viewers (which pays the rent). Thus, the couple were raped thrice (at the least).
‘End of story’ (for some) but not for the extremely unfortunate couple.
Sincere thoughts go to *them*.
PS: Andrew, you could do (and have done) MUCH better. TV, you *should* know better but many have probably come to expect worse as the ‘norm’ standard- as set by your lead. Bottom line = cha-chingggggg and what this ’sensational’ story presented, for some.
Baht&Sold: If you are referring to the fact that I angled this story with the ‘Clockwork Orange’ tag I really do not have any problem with that , except that the film is a little bit historical and many people would not have got it.
There is a scene in the film where the gang assault a businessmen and rape his wife in front of him.
Did I do this to point up the story? Yes, of course. But it did not make the story inaccurate.
The couple are okay. I have told them not to bother looking at forum sites in Thailand.
They are aware of the worst that can go up on the net as they watched some pretty nasty people posting on the Madelaine McCann story in Portugal.
Nothing much worse could happen to the couple, if their story is true and I believe it is.
At the end of the day perhaps nobody is going to investigate this matter if I do no get involved. And I have little hope of a satisfactory outcome. Your suggestion that the reporter got his pound of flesh is tacky and ill informed.
So yes, I do take a poor view of some of the posters who get on their soap boxes on internet forums and make accusations of sensational journalism.
Invariably, as I have pointed out before, the most vociferous of them have already been outed in Britain and Thailand, having appeared in newspapers themselves - and not in the society columns.
Read your email again and consider ‘Is what I have written a little bit pompous?’
A very sad and disturbing story, my thoughts go out to the poor couple.
I did trawl through the unseemly trash posted on TV, it is generally a waste of time but occasionally there will be updates.
I noticed a couple of posts by a Dimitri claiming to be your colleague, Andrew ( i use the word claim as one never knows with TV ).
Anyway, he said that the suspects were quite high profile/semi famous.
If this was a legit post, did he mean notorious as opposed to famous?
Two of the men are exceedingly well known in their professional fields, which are very much in the public eye. Not notorious at all (but I don’t know them)
Andrew, I don’t see you have to justify yourself at all especially against comments from poster ‘Baht&Sold’, which I assume is something to do with the website of the same name.
At least AndrewDrummond.com has original, insightful and interesting material unlike most websites out there.
Keep up the investigative journalism and reporting. Someone needs to do it when others cower and just post platitude news.
(Edward I edited this slightly because actually Baht&Sold came back privately and was very polite and wished he had rephrased his post I think)
I have lived in Thailand on and off for 15 years and it is a lawless place. I can believe this story is true and the fact that the police are not interest also does not surprise me. We are all at danger in this country and you can only hope that the community you live in has morals and standards, and that the community will come to your rescue when something awful happens. I can tell you some stories and personal experiences of the law being abused and justice not being done here. The adage of not spending more than you can afford to loose and don’t sell up and move to Thailand has got to be followed here. You have few rights here no matter what anyone tells you. So I guess nothing surprises me about Thailand?
Thaivisa’s George has now closed the thread there, citing that he has no time to moderate. He seems to have no confidence that it could be left for his moderating team. Rather mirrors your thoughts about them.
I suspect the real reason though is that there was an abscence of facts and a surfeit of nonsense on the thread. He was right to close in the circumstances. Perhaps with the time saved in not moderating the Clockwork Orange thread he could instigate some moderator training and take a look at the flaming in other threads.
Andrew, thanks for the subtle note on the edit and the edit itself however I am not sure that the current form of my post gets the point across that websites like BahtSold add so little value whereas your site does.
I hope this post makes my point clear as I really do get tired of the pompous ultra-right wing types (so common on ThaiVisa) that reside in Thailand who just ridicule and dismiss when they clearly have no experiences of their own. They follow every institution here blindly and without any reasoning or thought like sheep just because they think it puts them in with the elite crowd (who ironically would never even give them the time of day as we all know how low a ‘farang’ in Thai eyes, don’t we?
We should be our own people and exposing the shortcomings as you do is part of the wake up call to LOS… Keep up the good work.
@ Edward Boniface:
I heartily agree with:
‘At least AndrewDrummond.com has original, insightful and interesting material unlike most websites out there’
Cheers!
Well put Edward. And as a generalistaion of Thaivisa you are right.
Putting this into perspective though, it has a large membership and amongst them some good sensible posters. It fails through poor and misdirected moderation. But more posts more money!
You can test a good site (forum) by the way it allows views other than your own to be posted. Andrew’s blog does this. Contrast with the paknam web sites where an opinion not supported by the owners is not allowed.
Teakdoor? Sorry, can’t think of any redeeming feature.
@ Edward Boniface
“I hope this post makes my point clear as I really do get tired of the pompous ultra-right wing types (so common on ThaiVisa) that reside in Thailand who just ridicule and dismiss when they clearly have no experiences of their own. They follow every institution here blindly and without any reasoning or thought like sheep just because they think it puts them in with the elite crowd.”
Which, perhaps ironically, pretty much describes your average Daily Mail reader (apart from the ‘in Thailand’ bit).
Phil M: I hold no torch for the Daily Mail and although it did once support the Mosleyites I do not think that is its demographic any more.
People talk about SUN readers, Guardian readers, and Mail readers etc.
The only sure thing the research has produced is that those who shout loudest decrying the SUN, Mail , Guardian etc…..usually tend to be not just occasional readers but avid daily readers.
Pretty much all the major ‘British’ / ‘Irish’ pubs in Thailand have internet print editions of the SUN and Mail and sometimes The Times and Irish Times.
I use the term ‘Sun readers’ as a put down but in reality the SUN and News of the World have more influence and A/B readers than ‘The Times’.
Newbie, agreed… but there is a worse forum…….
- a forum so bad in terms of moderation and even worse in terms of content!
It has to be seen to be believed - HHAD - aka HuaHinAfterDark or as my friend says:
“don’t wait ’til after dark, just turn out the light right now, it’s such drivel!’
Funny but true and you’ll even beg for ThaiVisa after ten minutes there! Come to think of it, you’ll beg for anywhere after a weekend in Hua Hin, so stands to reason…
I think the Mail’s feigned moral outrage on all kinds of social issues makes its position and appeal very clear. Which was what I found a bit ironic in Edward’s comment about lack of reasoning and sheep. I don’t doubt that many of the people Edward is referring, do pick up the Mail here in Thailand.
Anyway, if I keep picking your stories up here and don’t know they’ve been in the Mail, then I won’t question your credibility too much!
I accept your point about the influence of the Sun completely, although the people of Merseyside have shown that you can hit them where it hurts with a sustained and unified effort. That scumbag McKenzie found the tables turned, and 20 years on there are still many newsagents in Liverpool who won’t carry the Sun, or stick it out of sight somewhere if they’re forced to.
PhilM. Can’t disagree with anything here Philm. (and the Sun are no doubt steel reeling from Hillsborough).
But actually I am freelance. My stories go to pretty much all newspapers at the touch of a button irrespective of their politics or if they have boobs on page 3. And then I get requests from individual papers. The only difference is that quite often they byline me.
Actually (apart from the fact that I write more from a British perspective and dig for stuff the British public want to know) this is exactly what Reuters/AP/PA/AFP do but their integrity is not questioned and they are not held responsible for the sins of the papers they service.
So PhilM. If my byline appears next week in Th SUN, be a little bit more circumspect than ThaiVisa or Teakdoor readers.
Edited: Reason: Too much info
Hey and Andrew, never ever complain about moderation on forums, when every single post on here has to be moderated or allowed by YOU.
Topper: The complaint was not about moderation but lack of it. This site is moderated, which is why your other post never made it here. Most posts do however because thankfully this site does not attract a lot of dross.
Your post contained false information that an invesigate report was removed from here which is patently not true.
That would lead to a TV type situation where a thread will run for ages with people replying to issues which do not exist.
If you look at this site you will notice that corrections are always made if information here proves to be inaccurate.
Criticism is welcome. Ill manners ar not. Quite simple.