Link to ‘An open letter to the Red shirts’ by Somtow Sucharitkul
Link to Don’t Blame Dan Rivers - by Somtow as well. He’s getting prolific
(This first letter above written in English was published in the Nation, not a place red shirts will be looking for their news , but I’m sure its now all over the place. The second letter is quite interesting too. Somtow is perhaps too pro-Abhisit/Anti-Thaksin for some, and if its aimed at the red-shirts it is rather patronising, but again its really aimed at us foreigners, so try the link below to the Economist. I don’t agree with everything but its a fairly good round up of the situation and has a go at all sides. A little bit quite smug too, and again it drags Royalty into it without explaining who really wants to drag Royalty into it and why) The Economist does not speak with the same authority as it used to, but then again I may just be getting long in the tooth.
A polity imploding -The Economist
But after reading it you should also take in to account this reply from Vimon Kidchob at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
This is a blog only
So did the press get it all wrong? How did the whole world miss some salient facts behind the recent red-shirt demonstrations in Bangkok?
Well, as a member of the press I must somehow be involved here. But I can honestly say that I never saw anybody lie. I do not think …………………..
I’m sorry. I interrupt this blog for an important announcement.
Certain events have overtaken this blog to render it quite obsolete.
Thaksin Shinawatra has essentially accused the present government of human rights and of burning down Central World. As an ex policeman he knows all this, he has told ABC Australia, adding that no soldiers were killed!
And secondly the South East Asia Editor of the Times was held at gunpoint in ‘five star’ hotel but it was no big deal.
See here: ‘Detained in my Bangkok hotel but when people are dying that’s no big deal’
I chuckled at headline. It sort of sounds like ‘Don’t worry I’ll be alright’.
The ‘Times; also claimed that the ‘Nation’ reported that red-shirt leaders were crying with joy on their way home is a rare breach of the government clampdown on the media. (Geddit? Neither did I)
My only take on the situation here is that one person I consider honest, and the other I consider not.
We’ve yet to see if the unblemished one can made some radical changes to the status quo here. And that cannot be done without a massive revamp to the justice system, including the right to question judges decisions. He may also need to remove the immunity of MPs from prosecution, so Parliament is not filled with crooks.
Either way we could be heading for either a dictatorship of socialist state, neither of which allow freedom of expression or much else for that matter. Actually we have been told we have a dictatorship and a tyrant already. Boy will these people be surprised when they actually get one.
I had originally written a blog pointing out what I thought the international media had missed or how people had been misled. But then I thought, well how patently ridiculous. Now matter how the international media is regarded at them moment, when its wrong things tend to come around full circle again anyway. I mean the Daily Mail once thought Adolf Hitler was a good guy.
Actually the press always backs the underdog in a social revolution. But this has always been a country of blatent hyprocracies where behind every truth there is an equal and opposite lie. So nobody gets it.
I thought, well, those complaining about the international media here should look at the Thai media. We have for instance a story about the public hue and cry for Thaksin Shinawatra on terrorism charges on the front of both English language papers.
But neither newspaper has actually yet, from what I can see, sent someone actually into the court to look at the depositions/ statements or listen to see what evidence was presented against Thaksin. It may have been rock solid. It may not. Its a bit silly arguing about whether Interpol will accept the warrants without this info.
His speech to the Red Shirts saying he would be with them as they went to Bangkok with their tractors etc looked like he was was heading in that direction.
But he has a water tight alibi for last Wednesday: He was shopping in Louis Vuitton in Paris with his daughter. And that’s where the leader of the people’s revolution ought to be, its a lot safer. :-)
But singing to ‘my Red Shirts’: “Asking me to stop loving you, is like asking me to stop breathing’ is not a terrorist act - even though some people may have leapt off a few high rises when they heard it.
Best sit tight and see how this develops.
Meanwhile I see Time magazine is advising Abhisit Vejjajiva as to what not to do. They are linking the recent demonstrations with Tak Bai. Geddit? No I don’t either.
And finally if you think press and TV were anti-government and pro-red shirt (until the burnings) then you should read this.
A very frank piece and no punches pulled. ( That’s actually a Welsh trait but clearly it’s in the Celt blood too )
One does need to have lived in Thailand or understand the Thai way to appreciate that it is all ” slowly slowly catchee monkey” here. There are many roads to negotiate before change can occur.
Same as business discussions anywhere in the East - lots of talking, finding middle ways, changing plans and agreements, then more reiterations.
Not a western way of course which is what I think confuses many farangs on their forums.
I’m no expert. I’m just expressing my opinion. But as I said one needs to have been here some time and understand the Thai way.
Thaksin was a popular figure early on in his Prime Minister ship, the war on drugs and his own little “War on terror” fitted in quite snugly with what the rest of the lunatics in the western world were up to,so the western press could be forgiven in thinking that he was the shining light following the example of Uncle Sam,Britain and Nato what a compliment to their inteligence this guy was.
How ever before anyone can say that the press got it wrong it should take more than the side accused of such an orchestrated litany of gross violence providing their own evidence as fact,however convincing that may seem.
Andrew Drummond The only place the War on Drugs fitted in was here, I’m afraid. And Britain has at least demonstrated that he is not a welcome guest. The videos currently being presented are very credible as I saw a lot of them before.
Andrew, your comments are getting more and more biased and more and more rambling
That’s your style, I know, but for someone who has been here for so long, you do miss the important points.
Maybe it is because you have become MTTT (More Thai than Thai).
You go on about Thaksin, PT elite, Gi and slate anyone else you can but ignore all the crimes and lies of the current government.
In the Thailand you would like, clearly there would be a group of elite running things and everyone else would have to keep quiet and work without any future.
Sorry, forgot, that’s the Thailand you have right now! massive censorship, poverty, unhappiness and no future for the majority of the population not to mention we expats who are gradually being forced out.
Great thing to support, Andrew! and before you say it, yes, I would take Thaksin or the PT any day. Cannot be any worse, can it!
Good luck with the blog as long as you have someone here left to read it. I’m off to KL next month so won’t include me. Finally had enough of the bullshit here. Stuff works in KL…
Andrew Drummond I see GDP has just gone up 12 per cent in the first quarter, despite the demos. Well of course it was a ramble, but I know of no bona fide press being censored here. Still good luck in KL. You’ll be back
Simon
I dont agree with much of Andrew today but I do agree with one thing he said “you will be back”
No, Andrew, GDP just went up 12% (maybe, if you believe the reports) compared to the first quarter last year where it actually contracted by around 7% so that puts that in context. It means that it actually didn’t contract this time…
On the same day, Thailand announces desperate measures to attract any business on the promise of 15 years with no tax to pay.
Go figure how well the country is doing!
As for no bona fide press being censored, dream on. Everything is censored from a post on Bangkok Post, The Economist and every YouTube, Facebook and Twitter account they don’t like to the tune of hundreds of websites EACH day.
Even the little cinema Thailand has is censored to the point that Apichatpong Weerasethakul complained at Cannes that he can’t even watch his own movies in his own country. He compared Thailand to Burma and Chine for censorship when he spoke to the BBC.
I don’t know what Thailand you live in but the one I have lived in for the last 6 years is in a complete mess. Even today my Thai wife said to me that she is “ashamed to be Thai” and can’t wait to leave. Today she spoke to a street vendor and could not believe her ears.
The street vendor said her daughter was looking for a new job “in a red shirt area”. My wife asked why… The answer: so she has a good excuse not to have to go to work.
Sums up Thailand perfectly. Every other ASEAN country has a future and is moving forward but not Thailand because it is held back by the laziness of its people which in turn leads to all the woes we see - greed, lies, corruption, arrogance.
Good luck to you in this mess. I will not be back for sure and mark my words. It will not take more than a few years before Thailand implodes completely due to its total failure to do anything properly.
Andrew Drummond: That’s a pretty good turn around in a recession Simon and there’s method in attracting foreign investment. Thailand doesn’t just make money on tax. I think the Bangkok Post censors its own posts, and you can’t blame the dinosaur of the Thai Film Board on Abhisit Vejjajiva. He has a lot more important things on his mind I am sure.
Of course if I am wrong, I’ll be out on my ear and you could come back as the new Robert Amsterdam.
If there is any censorship then it is probably when people make inappropriate remarks about the Monarchy. Both the yellows and reds at least say they support the monarchy (though incitement to violence could be another reason)
I do not intend at this stage to enter into that controversial circus.
True, nobody lied, they only did selective journalism.
I do understand some of the Red’s grievances, but don’t give me that ‘we want democracy’ or ‘we want a just society in which everyone is equal’ bullshit. There’s no such society, otherwise Mao’s vision of communist China would have survived until today.
So, if anyone is acting naive and believe that Thaksin’s ‘democracy’ (whatever that means) will create more just and ‘democratic’ society for Thai people, I’ll say please…go back to where you belong. Every baht he used to fund his populist policies, to help improve the lives of the poor, came directly from the tax payers’ pockets. And guess who’s the victim here?
Simon and Andrew,
The GDP figure being quite so good was down to a rebound effect which is fueled in many cases by delayed orders being realised its happenned all over asia in the last quarter,even without the troubles it would be unlikely that the figure would be this high agian in next few qtrs.
I think maybe it’s time you came back here already Simon,no tax for 15 years,the double, triple layed tax system you will encounter in Malaysia plus bidding second hand for contracts that are given to the Bumi putra(by right)first will drive you insane.
Thai’s will always be Thai’s they just love to scrap each other its in the blood,our job is to keep out of the way.
Andrew,
The videos look true, however many of the Toys the protesters were playing with may have been brought to the may 1oth party by uninvited guests who later came back with bigger toys,maybe they shouldn’t have brought them in the first place and pointed them at people or at least not left them behind to be played with by unauthorised citisens.
I also believe that who ever owned the other “war weapons”(displayed so proudly to all and sundry on TV) before they ended up in Bangkok should look at the security of these weapons they have a responsibility to the public to keep them secure.
Bob, thanks for the advice…
I agree with you about the figures and it is the usual Thai (don’t understand or don’t want to understand about figures) miscommunication of things. Anyone would think that GDP is at a record 15 year high form the headlines whereas it jsut recovered slightly form last year but is still way down overall.
Regarding KL, I am not looking to work there so none of that bothers me. I work online now so I can be anywhere in the world. Previous experiences with Thai staff made me vow to never have a physical office and staff here so I think them for that!
Malaysia is a place where I get a 10 year visa and silver ID card for treatment like a first class citizen. I can walk down the pavement without breaking an ankle or getting run over, cross the road in safety, send my kid to a good school, talk to any of the locals in great English, meet locals that are real people and not all racist, see great diversity of scenery etc.
Most of all, I can feel I belong and make a home there because Malaysia embraces cultural diversity rather than fears it and has a future thanks to proper government policies. Sure it’s not perfect but it is a far nicer place to live than Thailand and cheaper overall. I have done the maths…
Andrew Drummond Malaysia truly Asia. Look Simon if you can really live wherever you want, go to West Malaysia, Sabah (Kota Kinabalu) or Sarawak.
You’ll love it. It was colonised too, so no terrible hang-ups and Islam in the minority if that is a concern of yours. No khalwat or zina.
The current British media doesn’t know its arse from its elbow. Having witnessed the store-bought bias of most British newspapers during the recent election, its obvious they automatically favor whoever has the most money in the so-called free market. Small wonder then that they wish to portray Thaksin as a reformer. As Andrew points out, most of us who have really lived thru’ the Thaksin era know that he is a total fake. I choose not to support any current faction or party here, since all of them are only interested in manipulating voters for their own personal gain.
Agreed, loved it there but I’m a city boy and KK is too rural though very, very beautiful…
I agree with Bob. The path to ex-pat enlightenment is to keep out of the way (though next time the trouble might come looking for us) and as for Malaysia … out of the frying pan and into the fire I’m afraid. Now there’s a powder keg of a divided society if ever there was one and with a huge post-colonial chip on its shoulder.
Simon I’m sold on Malaysia it’s only the wife stopping us from moving there.
I agree with everything that you have wrote.
David’s problem is pretty much the same as most Thais, both rich and poor. If they have the money, their favored solution is to move away from a problem, rather than actually trying to fix it. Superficially, Malaysia is an interesting place. The reality is that it is just as dysfunctional as Thailand, but in different ways.
“but I know of no bona fide press being censored here”
So all Red media is not “bona fide” Is Yellow media all “bona fide”?
If there is any censorship then it is probably when people make inappropriate remarks about the Monarchy.
If there is any censorship??? What are you blind?
You have zero credibility. There are 2 sides to this story and they both need to be portrayed. My biggest fear is the current repression will spawn a truly violent response as a journalist you should be fighting against censorship and for openness but like so many you have chosen to align yourself to 1 side.
Andrew Drummond: J Girl. Lets get things in perspective here. As a foreign correspondent I can write what I want under the present government. I did not feel free under the government of Thaksin Shinawatra. Find me a foreign correspondent who will disagree with that.
You can however take it for granted that living in Thailand I am unlikely however to write conjecture about the Monarchy. It is against the law. It was also against the law under the govt of Thaksin Shinawatra.
I do not approve of censorship but I do not in anyway consider Red TV, Red Truth or indeed any of the Yellow publications as legit media. With media comes responsibility. They are merely hate filled political propaganda sheets. The media should not be put in the hands of children, though, of course, sometimes I think the western media is.
Now grow up
PS: Some international publications have been censored because of reference to the monarchy. I do not agree with the Lese Majeste laws. Change however must come within Thailand.
FYI, Somtow’s piece got published in ABC News also and has garnered a hundred comments from readers.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2905056.htm
Want to draw your attention to Spiegel’s Thailand correspondent, Thilo Thielke, who wrote in his 24 May 2010 article: “Over the past two years, during which I reported on the Red Shirts, I have almost never seen a firearm — with the exception of the occasional revolver in the hand of a bodyguard.”
I’m seriously tempted to say that this foreign correspondent is lying, especially since he’s been covering the protests this year where war weapons were in abundant use by the Reds.
yes i had problems with that too.
censorship in thailand is a fact. no point dressing it up any other way
Andrew Drummond Censorship is abhorrent. Don’t confuse that with me opening a newspaper tomorrow and calling you a ‘psychopath’ or something a lot worse, without any supporting evidence.
Thailand’s libel laws though archaic were used to the fullest by TS, who of course censored the press in many ways…usually where it hurt..commercially. They do not prevent the libel being committed however.
What publications are you missing?
Well put Andrew, obviously some posters had not endured the RED TV program as indeed neither had the people who set fire to channel 3 been watching that (far too busy transfixed on the red stage)
Some people seem to take what others say has been said in the media at face value which is one reason the Red followers got so fired up in the first place.
I HAVE watched both Red and Yellow TV at great length, there is no comparison in production values as one is obviously produced by professionals whilst the other is simply an amateurish propaganda machine churning out the same, almost subliminally mind numbing message.
I do not agree with everything the Yellow guys say but at least my ASTV receiver (Supplied by ASTV) also got the Red channel can’t be any fairer than that,
Oh and for those who have NEVER watched, ASTV also does health and lifestyle programs not 24/7 hate.
I deliberately posted a short reply, without reference to particular “sides” in order not to incite.
But to answer fully, let’s get rid of the bias.
Yes TS used censorship but so is Abhisit now. I agree TS overdid it. That does not make censorship right. your comment about its abhorence seems you agree but would have been better in my view if you had given arguments from both “sides”
Both used / use propaganda ( pr ) machines. Again no difference. Personally I find that abhorent too.
I do not confuse censorship and libel. In fact I never mentioned libel. We have to obey the laws of the country we live in and yes they are archaiac by western standards. Both sides are taking advantage of the libel and lese majeste laws - but I am not going down that road.
To GT I would suggest trying to look at things from both sides. You make some good points on which I would not disagree but too many expats here seem to take the view of a defense or prosecution barrister and argue only their own view.
It’s good that on forums we can have balance and that comments are not flamed or censored.
And for the record I admire Andrew’s work - it is usually fearless and he allows alternative views on his blog. I don’t want to see ST back in Tahiland. But that’s off topic.
Andrew,GT,
With the internet these days what is and what isn’t legit media?.A video can reach you tube in minutes be rabid in hours and go feral in days(I just invented the rabid maybe it will take off) and be viewed by zillions where the readership and distribution of the more traditional press is slower and more tied up in legal and advertising.
The yellow TV should be more professional considering the amount of cash thrown at it by the owners who live together with nearly all the yellow media outlets in a state of constant fear of Mr TS making an unlikely comeback for obvious reasons.The easiest way for the country to get TS out of the picture is not to mention him,he can’t come back, he’s gone not a bo peap about him and after a couple of months nobody would care,but they can’t they are addicted to him,and keep giving him free press which only fuels the fire and is picked up by the foreign press,and of old TS himself which gives him more energy,leave him alone and he will go away unless of course you have got something to hide,it’s really borish behaviour I reckon.
Finally I think TS put up with a lot of local media attacks when he was in power as far as english language publications The Nation attacked him daily without any censureship maybe it was fifferent for the foriegn press.
Finally what great article by Khun Somtow,lets see if there are any efforts at change I doubt it.
BOB
Andrew, just to update you, I had a great week in KL last week and hat a pleasant surprise to see such genuine and warm people. Perhaps Thailand was once like that but now the people here are amongst the least friendly and most money-grabbing in Asia.
Also, such is the trouble brewing here, as I see international pressure on the regime here mounting and people starting to boycott travel and goods form Thailand, I can’t see how some like you can continue to support the current junta (as it is little more than that) for all its lies, deceit and oppression. Good luck if you do as the tide is turning.
Andrew Drummond Jolly good Simon. Are you back already? Yes I love Malaysia too. And usually in small doses too. I’m not saying there is no corruption there but I was once asked to be the middle man in the purchase of ‘English language television programming there’ - I declined.
By the way, no where have I suggested that I am a govt supporter, even though I tend to believe more the word of Abhisit Vejjajiva, so that will make me lean more that way. I’m all for closing the big divide.
What I am saying is red shirt peoples power, is fine - but at the end of the day the the politicians they are supporting got Thailand into a massive mess in the first place, and have been living off the people of Issan for years.
Andrew, from your blogs you are clearly a PAD /Government supporter so what is the point of denying it? Thaksin must have upset you really badly as you seem to hate him to death yet ignore every wrong doing by the current powers that be, politically and economically. Oh and jump on the anti-CNN bandwagon while you’re at it!
Andrew Drummond Being anti one does not necessarily mean I am pro the other. I am certainly not pro-PAD, and there are people in the coalition I would not like to see there. But it would be inappropriate for me to go into personalities. Do I dislike Thaksin or hate him? I do not know him. But I have listened to him over the years.
I’ve interviewed a few of the relatives of people who were killed after his ‘Thai police can do anything under the sun’ speech though, which I guess leaves me a little jaundiced. Here’s one. I’m sure you can find others.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sunday-mirror/2007/08/05/man-city-owner-death-link-98487-19572554/
What politically and economically do you see as the sins of this government by the way…They clearly have not looked after the people of Issan, next…?
Trouble with the press they can’t be doing with complexities that get in the way of issues their readership can comprehend easily and quickly, especially when true understanding might disclose uncomfortable truths. Better that the English FA and the supporters of Man. City embraced the image of an unlawfully deposed hero of the poor rather than the thieving murderer he actually was. If that was how a supposedly informed, developed, mature democracy reacted to the wretch then how could one criticise the lumpen poor of Thailand for their actions?
I despair of the Western chattering classes who still see Thaksin as a man of some value simply because he paid lip service to the poor and gave the illusion of strength and stability as if his wholesale murder of innocents and endemic corruption were paltry issues unworthy of consideration. Didn’t they learn that when you sup with the devil you’d better take a long spoon.
Keep up the good work Andrew and stick it to that Parry Thaksin apologist.
And I can’t quite understand why the likes of Bangkok Observer fail to see the huge inconsistencies in the redshirts’ words and deeds. My conclusion is he is either intensely naive, ill-informed or … some other rather suspect motive. I trust absolutely NO ONE involved in Thai politics. Indeed, I have little respect for just about all Thais of supposed political persuasion - especially the rich and powerful ones. They nearly all seem to have some parasitic motive.
I have just witnessed a meeting of tuk-tuk drivers that was obviously organised by an army man with close connections to Chaiyasit Shinawatra. And we know what Chaiyasit thinks about this government. Indeed, we also know he is one of those loud-mouthed obnoxious blowhard Thais who will stop at nothing to continue living the high-life. Can’t tell you what the meeting discussed, but it was likely about two things. Taking actions to embarrass and harass the government (When will bombs start going off here again, as they do with EVERY change of political regime) or they were discussing how said drivers could be employed in the next election. Either way, there was undoubtedly a proposal for some financial input. The meeting was attended by about some obviously armed men, who were probably other army personnel.
Bangkok Observer. Do you seriously believe that the Shinawatra mafia are interested in creating a more just society? Have you been asleep or out of the country for the last 10 years? I think it is far more likely they are planning to gain advantage from the inevitable (weak) succession.
Doubtless, SOME yellow and redshirts do favor a more equitable future, but I doubt their views are going to prevail over those who see ALL local politics as an investment for future plunder of the exchequer and the country. In case you hadn’t noticed, there is no democracy here. Plenty of kleptocracy, however. And given the local scofflaw nature, no immediate prospect of a fairer and safer society.
So what are your motives in accusing Andrew of bias? All the evidence I have on Andrew is that he has been here long enough to realise that Western ideas of democracy and fairness are largely useless here. He has also noted that Thaksin is just as cynically lethal as his political predecessors.
I agree that this government is incapable of helping less well-off Thais, but all the evidence I have is that the redshirt and Peua Thai leadership have sold their souls to the Shinawatra mafia. Democracy cannot be created by slaves of the mafia1
Sins of this government? How long do you have?
In no particular order:
Rohingya - mistreatment, denial and lies
Santika - failure to prosecute, corruption and mis-information
Smelly fish - corruption
Medical equipment - corruption
258m THB - corruption
Cambodia - inflaming situation at Preah Vihear
Southern states - heavy handed approach making things worse
Anything forensic - using discredited Porntip to say anything she is paid to say
GT200 - allowing army corruption
Blimp - more army corruption
Hmong - forced repatriation to certain persecution
Myanmar - no condemnation of actions by them
Isaan - worse off than ever
Prostitution - worse than ever in central BKK
Police - more corrupt than ever
Airport link - can’t get it even to open
Lottery - reneged on the contract
BKK traffic - nothing done to help the problem
Green issues - zero interest and action
PAD - no action taken over the airport or gov’t house sieges and even has a major perpetrator, Kasit, in the cabinet
Cambodian people trafficking on boats - inaction and denial
Drugs - failure to control borders
Container at Sattahip - failure to investigate
Censorship - massive increase since taking over
Economy stimulus - stupid shallow short term fixes
Tourism - failure to understand and act to help
Trade - failure to assist
THB - keeping artificially high so hi-sos can shop abroad
Education - no action
Hospitals - no action
Empty promises - how many do you want? high speed rail, education reforms, and “hubbing” - hub of this and hub of that but nothing actually ever done.
And I haven’t even mentioned the red shirts!
Is that enough damage and time wasting for one government? I think so…
Say what you might about Thaksin but he made Thailand into “Thailand plc” - he increased trade, paid off the whole international debts, got rid of drug problems and was open to outside investment and business. We foreigners stood some chance because he was a businessman and we were getting more integrated. Sure he was corrupt but he shared it around in Isaan and was reforming the country…
We all stand no chance with the selfish xenophobic hi-sos who have their hand up the back of Abhsisit’s shirt. Believe me, he makes no decisions without checking with his owners.
Rohingya - mistreatment, denial and lies (Inherited problem acted on) However its clear that Thaksin is unaware of some actions of the armed forces until after they happen.
education reforms (repetition), and “hubbing” - hub of this and hub of that but nothing actually ever done.
Santika - failure to prosecute, corruption and mis-information (Police and court matter)
Smelly fish - (Is this really a govt problem?)
Medical equipment - corruption (Investigated on Abhisit’s order)
Cambodia - inflaming situation at Preah Vihear (merely jingoism, so what was the long term bad result?)
Southern states - heavy handed approach making things worse (And, boy, who started this hard crackdown, which btw has now been softened)
Anything forensic - using discredited Porntip to say anything she is paid to say (GT200 scandal sorted in a Thai way)
GT200 - allowing army corruption (see above) But corruption is not going to disappear instantaneously.
Blimp - more army corruption (Army control most of its own budget. That’s one of the reasons why Thaksin appointed his relatives at the top. The other of course was control)
Hmong - forced repatriation to certain persecution (Supervised. What certain persecution? Evidence please.)
Myanmar - no condemnation of actions by them (Unbelievable this considering who was a business partner with Burma in a mututally profitiable communications deal)
Isaan - worse off than ever (Issan better off than its ever been. Fact)
Prostitution - worse than ever in central BKK (Not my field I’m afraid. Got the statistics here have you. Did you mean uglier than ever?)
Police - more corrupt than ever (And given the unquestining support of Thaksin Shinawatra )
Airport link - can’t get it even to open (I think we can safely put this down to the UDD)
Lottery - reneged on the contract (Indeed, sensibly)
BKK traffic - nothing done to help the problem (And who promised he would solve all Bangkok’s traffic problems? How many years ago was that?)
Green issues - zero interest and action (Vejjajiva is enthusiastically green)
PAD - no action taken over the airport or gov’t house sieges and even has a major perpetrator, Kasit, in the cabinet (agree)
Cambodian people trafficking on boats - inaction and denial (I have not seen the denial, to what specifically)
Drugs - failure to control borders (What’s new? You try it! I’ve walked into Burma many times, nobody stopped me)
Container at Sattahip - failure to investigate. (Que?)
Censorship - massive increase since taking over (I feel free, answered earlier)
Economy stimulus - stupid shallow short term fixes (You need to explain this. Thailand has more reserves, 200 bn, now than it has had for ages)
Tourism - failure to understand and act to help (I’m confident Tourism has the cash to look after itself and destroy Thailand at the same time)
Trade - failure to assist (Thailand has no problem with trade)
THB - keeping artificially high so hi-sos can shop abroad (Nonsense . So how are they keeping it high? Explain. I have had this conversation with Abhisit)
Education - no action. Too vague
Hospitals - no action. Also too vague.
Empty promises - how many do you want? high speed rail (that’s really Abhisit’s fault
Thaksin was the inventor of Thailand’s various hubs btw. Look it up. And the inventor of ‘Thailand Elite’
Bkk Observer makes very valid points about the current government but then totally rubbishes his own case but letting the equally corrupt, vindictive, dictatorial, nepotistic and violent Thaksin government completely off the hook. Are you in reality that shameless store-bought American PR man and spin doctor, OB? It is truly wierd that the only way people can defend Thaksin is by trying to rewrite his history in an attempt to make a deeply-flawed man look slightly more human.
Thailand PLC - Modern myth-making. Indeed, the CEO style of government is greatly to blame for the vast divisions we now see in Thai society. Indeed, he cynically cultivated those divisions to maintain his grip on power. It is foolish nonsense to run a government as if it were only yet another business. Shin PLC is closer to the point.
Increased trade and paid off international debts. - Good point, but he can’t take all the credit. He does deserve credit for this. Such a shame that all his other policies were marred by ill-planned childish impetuosness and greed.
Open to outside investment and business - Especially when he could personally benefit from it.
Selfish xenophobic hi-sos - They used to be his friends and allies. What went sour? Certainly not his bogus reform desires. Rather his tendency to gobble up everything that stood in his way. They grew to realize that he was jeopardising their easy taken-for-granted lifestyle. To which I would add, to create his own dynasty.
Got rid of the drugs problem - You mean he shamelessly encouraged the murder of a couple thousand small fry without trial, and still didn’t really manage to dent a trade in which many of his police and military allies still have a huge interest.
Shared his money - You mean a few measley extra baht that he milked to death as shameless propaganda, by squandering government money on ill-planned projects that were never properly designed to address Thailand’s real problems
Reform - He destroyed the 1997 constitution, purely to advance the political & business interests of himself, his spoilt-brat family, and his sychophantic chronies.
We foreigners - No! Only you already wealthy farangs. The rest of us were treated with increasing xenophobia, and used as a scapegoat for increasing resentment against successful foreign businessmen. We were the easy target, while you retired to your easy life in luxury apartments and gated communities.
More integrated - Like more integrated into the the thieving hands of the Shinawatra Clan.
Is that enough damage and time wasting for one government? I think so…
By all means tell us about the failures of the current government. But if you persist in reeling of the Official Jakkrapob PR bookspin of Thaksin Mythology you will find little support outside the small privileged farang elite (who it seems are prepared to ignore almost any sin as long as they get to realise a quick and easy buck).
I suggest it would be more constructive for you to realise that almost all local politicians are shameless parasites. Thailand will make no real progress as long as it allows itself to be so ruthlessly manipulated by the elite and their opposing color-coded goon squads.
Bangkok Observer, We stand NO chance with ANY Thai politician. Indeed, we also stand no chance with people like you who are prepared to ignore obvious abuses in one government purely because HE is a ‘free market’ advocate. Such a shame that all his ‘free’ comes with a heavy bill attached! What use a free market, if it just leads us back to yet another form of slavery. In Thaksin’s case, the idea of reform and greater freedom is a deliberate and cynical untruth.
On the Abhiset issue you are being partially honest with us. That is appreciated. My observations are similar, but not entirely the same. On the Thaksin issue you are being selectively dishonest. Now, if I was a raw newcomer I might be inclined to believe you. Having lived through the Thaksin era, and not being some cosseted international businessman, I don’t believe your cop-out statements on Thaksin in the slightest.
Andrew Drummond: I have not mentioned free market policies. But was it not Thaksin who signed all these free trade agreements particularly one with China which is why Thailand is being flooded with cheaper veg than the farmers can produce here.
Bangkok Observer/Andrew
The baht’s relative strength is probably more down to the weakness of other currencies,and the influence of the CNY over the whole region.
Although it can be argued that a majority of overseas loans for the building boom are in US dollars and any rate drop would indeed hurt the pockets of big business.
A bit of name dropping with AV there Andrew,but you never said what he told you.
Andrew Drummond Well he spoke a lot about environmentally friendly alternative power sources and the cost of a Big Mac.
Lest anyone continue in ignorance about the nature of Thaksin’s declared war on drugs, the victims were in the main not dealers or major suppliers but simply users who had already done their time, so to speak. Each police force had to show they were “with the programme” and to make their quota they simply drew up lists incorporating these old offenders. Others were added for differing reasons but those assassinations all helped to make up the numbers.
Several were accidents but who cared ~ in fighting that type of war only the body count mattered.
Watching him trying to inveigle the UN now into Thai politics is truly sick making.
I’m afraid his enemy is my friend, unconditionally.
Those press that tried to paint the picture of Thai military shooting unarmed protesters indiscrimately definitely got it wrong.
Prof. Desmond Ball teaches at ANU’s Strategic and Defence Studies Centre. He is a highly regarded expert on military and security affairs and has published over 60 books on nuclear strategy and defence and security in the Asia-Pacific region including “The Boys in Black: The Thahan Phran (Rangers), Thailand’s Para-military Border Guards” (White Lotus, Bangkok, 2004). He thinks that the military operations against the Red Shirts were conducted professionally.
In an interview, he said: “Let me say that I’m not a person who normally supports army crackdowns of protesters. My sort of basic philosophy normally starts off from the other side, supporting protesters against army and security crackdowns. But in this case I think that the security authorities including both the police and the army acted by and large very professionally. I’m not sure whether I can see what other choices that they had , they had to finally move that Red Shirt encampment in that central business area of Bangkok. They did it in ways which I think really minimized the violence compared to what it could have been, we could have seen fatalities in the hundreds if they hadn’t been organized properly and conducted properly…..”
You can see his full interview at the link below. He discusses lots of issues including who the “black shirts” are and the assassination of Seh Daeng. The quoted part above appears at around 11.30 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94uSuQxSA0
Koko,
Mr Ball from the comfort of his study,pipe in hand and beard clippers at the ready did indeed see things that way
From an operational standpoint to consider the security forces did a good job is absurd.
The first time was an abject failure because their intellengence was flawed.
The troops were burdened with too much hardware(both batons,tear gas,rifles and heavy padding) which made it easy for them to be dissarmed and out manouvered and they had no idea how to withdraw in an orderly manner.
They also had limited cover from above.
The second time due to the 150/200 metre kill zone was much more professional and effective and indeed did save lives compared to an all out assault.
However having no ongoing plan of containment after the reds surrended and dispersed angrily into the general population was shortsighted to say the least.
Koko lets be fair there is plenty of evidence of innocent people being shot,from journo’s (please refer to todays bangkok post and the bravery of the red guard who under fire saved the life of the canadian franch 24 guy),to the youtube videos of the unarmed protesters being shot hiding behind tyres,as well as the uncertainty surounding temple incident.
There is also evidence that there was an element of the protesters who were not peacefull in their actions or intentions.
However we should all be mindfull that as buddhists we shouldn’t have listened to innuendo and half truths and fought harder for a peacefull solution we were duty bound.
For the wounds to start to heal everybody must admit their wrong doings however good their intentions, any less is unthinkable.
Andrew Drummond: Fair enough Bob but oooh be a little bit careful about Bangkok Post stuff. That piece did not carry a name, only Special Correspondent. Reads like it was written by a foreigner, and probably a friend of Nelson Rand, if not organised by Nelson himself.
This piece contained blatant quotes about what lovely people the Red Shirts were, albeit from a red shirt. Now check out Nelson Rand. Find out much in the way of him being a foreign correspondent? Well yes he has a book and worked on the Nation. Now check out his name in connection with Chandler Vandergrift, another Canadian.
Yes. They write stories together for rather obscure regional publications.
Now check Vandergrift’s blog ‘NationState” and you will see this:
“The grim statistics back this up. Between May 13 and 17, the government reported that at least 35 people had been killed, all civilians, and at least 232 wounded. There were no military forces killed.
“Were these people terrorists warranting a sniper’s bullet, wouldn’t the government be parading weapons of war in front of the already subservient local media? Wouldn’t there be serious casualties on the military side?
And wouldn’t the masses of local and international media be filming the reds with war weapons if they had them?”
He then goes on to describe Panitan Wattanayakorn as an academic turned ’shameless government spokesman’.
Now we get the picture. It is unfortunate that Vandergrift, who while in Rajaprasong seemed to miss all the Red speeches of ‘Burn Bangkok’ and ‘ Kill the Yellows’ etc was later blown up by one of those red shirt weapons that he never saw.
Andrew,just for you
Yeah fair enough mate but he certainly summed up Khun Panitan correctly enough I must admit to wanting to vomit everytime he opens his mouth as well.
I was under the immpression Rand wrote the article himself.
I have seen the video but alas its not where it was.
Do you think Rand deserved what happenned to him then?
My issue is this,I’m sick and tired of all the complete and utter crap that is being bandied around by the present administration as if they are or have been actually doing anything different to all of the rest of their predesesors.In an administration that wasnt being overseen by Khun Suthep maybe Khun Aphisit would be able to achieve something,but its a PAD/military backed coup related,standover coalition that has no chance unless they were actually honest and “radical” enough to include some of the opposition in any dare I say the word “reconciliation”.They have spent the last few weeks wallowing in their security forces victory and only mentioning central and southern Thais in any positive manner.everybody else is a terrorist.If they are to win an election they either need a quick lesson in ‘Issan dialect” and history or they will once again have to rely on either some more dodgy constitution changes(likely)or Khun Sonti’s thugs.There addiction to catching Khun Thaksin and ridiculing the Royal Thai Police is an example of the administrations rather borish behavior which is alienating them from everyone except their current support base and they just dont have enough of them,otherwise we would have been treated to a grand election already thats for sure.
This admin owes so many so much for actually being where they are they have no room to move I suppose.
By the way some of the best words I have ever heard uttered from the mouth of a modern Thai came from the red stage,Khun Veeras words often moved me to tears,even old soft arse Weng had the tissues handy.
On the other side the anti PAD violent crap was just that crap.Although they probably learnt the former by listening to some of the anti police,anti Thai Ruk Thai slung around by the PAD not so long ago.
We need an election old chap its the only way forward,and I need some customers so I’m not boring you on your blog.
Cheers
BOB
PS can you get spell check set up.
Andrew Drummond: No I would not wish anyone to get killed or injured. Being a journalist does have its hazards. The thing is to be sensible about it.
Journalists embedded with the military whether it be Iraq or the Falklands take essentially the same risks as the soldiers and are prepared.
Journalists with rebel groups tend to take higher risks. Journalists to-ing and fro-ing between armed troops and an undisciplined mob when guns are going off are not acting sensibly. But Rand did provide some wonderful footage…………for rival agencies.
I have for instance been in a situation between two opposing armies with a film crew when nothing was happening. The producer suggested our side ‘let off a few’, which was done reluctantly. We discovered quickly why, as we became the subject of a barrage of high explosives. We got good sound, but no pictures as we tried to dig ourselves through to Mexico, and the producer had to change his trousers.
It was of course a bad call.
Spellcheck. I tend to speed write and also read. Quite often I do not see errors until days, even weeks later. I just ask people to take this as it comes, and bear with the flaws. But I am happy to receive corrections, when people, not looking through my eyes, spot them. :-). I think I am getting rather famous for my literals now.
I just checked out that website Vandergrift admits seeing m16s and hearing M79s from the reds
Bob makes some valid points, but ….
“We need an election” Truly laughable. It will neither achieve or solve anything, as long as the Royal Thai Police, the military, the civil service, politicians and big business continue to be nothing better than a mafia beholden to the highest bidder. The further problem, of course, is that there is NO political force here capable of reforming these groups. Not even Thaksin Shinawatra’s money is/was capable of that most necessary next step. (Which is precisely why I haven’t had a single good word to say about the man since 1994.) His corruption and arrogance were always going to render him ultimately useless to this country. He promised the world and produced nothing but anarchy. not exactly the mark of a man who once claimed to be in control!
But to agree with Bob, it is very obvious that the Democrats also do not have the cojones to tackle the REAL problem. Indeed, all the evidence I have is that Thais generally do not have the wherewithal and necessary commitment to make their society more equitable. Ask them to build a happening department store, and they manage quite well. Ask them to show a bit more respect for those who feed them and they immediately find some displacement activity to avoid the necessary hard graft.
Wotdemocracy
I agree that who ever wins any future elections the situation will likely be the same or possibly worse,however the system must try and it must be tested,otherwise there is no point in pretending there is a democracy in Thailand.
Where do we go from here?,the more you look for a way forward the more unlikely any satisfactory conclusion looks even possible.
However try we must.
Bob,
I’m not so certain about lots of “innocent” people being shot at. During the final stages of the operations from 13 May onwards, the soldiers were merely cordoning off the Ratchaprasong Intersection main protest area (where all the innocents are located) by setting checkpoints around that area. The army never moved into Ratchaprasong and only did so after the Red leaders had announced their surrender on May 19. All the army ever did between 13 - 19 May was set up their checkpoints outside of the main protest site and while doing so and simply manning these checkpoints, they came under attack but the red shirts. These red shirts were deliberately sent out from the main protest area in Ratchaprasong and was joined by other red shirts from other areas to attack these army checkpoints - located outside the main protest area - in order to provoke the security forces and to attack them with M79 grenades. So don’t be surprised that these people were shot at. They were given plenty of warnings that they were not supposed to be in those areas eg. Bon Kai, Sala Daeng, Rajaprarop, Din Daeng but chose to defy these warnings for a reason, that being to come out and deliberately engage in fighting with the army. The “innocent” ones who merely wanted to protest peacefully stayed in the Ratchaprasong area, while any red shirts engaged in confrontation with the army at army checkpoints outside the protest area were asking for a fight, so they were shot at. In such a scenario, I think its fair to say the soldiers overall did a good job in terms of restraint and minimizing losses when faced with constant provocation and grenade attacks.
Another point which the foreign press often gets wrong is this fantasy of there being a class war in Thailand. Until now, I’ve only come across two articles in the foreign press (and one is written by an academic) that gets it more or less right.
Bert Lintner’s piece:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/thai-turmoil-was-no-class-war-20100607-xped.html
and
Prof. Duncan McCargo’s analysis:
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Bangkok+battles+rehearsal+civil/3050637/story.html
Another thing missed by the foreign press is Thaksin’s active role in derailing the peacetalks (ie. hoping to accumulate the body count) between the red shirt leaders and the government.
Only one article covers this aspect well, which is Mr. James Hookway of WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704852004575257790134925082.html?mod=WSJ_World_LeadStory
While the red shirt’s use of military grade weapons did get some mention in the foreign press, some aspects of their violence were overlooked, for example, the fact that on May 19 firecrews were being shot at by redshirts to prevent them from stopping the fires, a good account of this provided by Bkkpost today at (scroll down to “Who set fire to Centralworld”):
http://bangkokpost.com/news/politics/38232/thaksin-last-option-to-topple-the-abhisit-government
and while foreign press did mention about the redshirts raid of Chula hospital, they never managed to give that much detail despite the fact that the reds had been very abhorrent towards the hospital. They never tried to get an actual witness account of what happened. However, Physicians for Human Rights, a US-based NGO and nobel peace prize recipient managed to document the details of what happened including the reds threat to blow up the hospital:
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/library/documents/briefing-papers/bangkok-unrest.pdf
Koko
I agree that the 200 metre exclusion zone was in fact in effect and well publicised however unarmed protesters were regularily shot,wounded and killed inside and outside those exclusion zones.
The point I am trying to make is that an unarmed human being cannot hurt a defensive well protected soldier 200 metres away so why shoot him/her,if he/she is armed with a weapon such as rifle/grenade launcher sure shoot him/her,if he/she is armed with a tyre and rolling it toward you 200 metres away don’t shoot and kill them,if he or she is armed with a stick,you gueesed it dont shoot and kill them,now heres a trick question for 50 points,if he/she is armed with a wooden sling shot mainly used for hunting small birds to make delicious larb nok,or scare away dogs.(a)do you shoot and kill(B)dont shoot and kill.Its answer (b) by the way.
The thing that must be remembered here is that there is very little proof of who was doing what only insinuations and half truths,regarding Khun Thaksins involvment if there is proof sure then its fact until then its not closing bank accounts is not proof yet.
Although I feel the army are probably accidentilly responsible for the temple killings there is no proof yet and we must respect their position as we must respect suspected militants rights from the PAD and the UDD until proven otherwise.
Now the point is this OK the security forces did say they were going to shoot anybody within those 200 metre exclusion zones.No question about it everybody was told and understood.
But that dosen’t make it right.
Nothing can bring them back,even if they deliberately defied a govt order and went into a forbidden zone,nothing can justify unarmed slaughter of human beings.
Just think about it for a while,just think of the human cost,the mothers,children with no dads.
nothing justifies human slaughter.
Andrew
Let it through its balanced
Andrew Drummond My apologies Bob. I’ve been speed reading again because I am writing for six papers today. (Well reporting anyway. My mistakes here are so plentiful I have been demoted from writer and will revert to being just the old hack )
I have found a few comments which I missed. They’re up now, I hope. Anybody else?
Koko
You have also failed to mention the fact that a section of chula doctors once threatened not ot treat members of the royal thai police during the PAD uprisings.
Andrew,
Six papers now,is that why I saw you staring dreamiiy at the new lexus showroom the other day.hahahah.
Be careful they will be calling you elite soon
BOB
Andrew Drummond You gotta grasp it when it comes. Makes up for the days when nothing happens. This week I do not have to send the kids round to collect all the empty bottles
I
PHP missed the part where the Red Shirts kidnapped two guys from the Chula hospital claiming them to be undercovers but later released them when they turned out to be construction workers.
The reds have shown no respect for hospitals and safety of patients. Previously on 10 April, they raided several hospitals to steal the corpses of the victims. A short clip was recorded in one incident where they tried to push their way into the emergency ward of Vachira hospital:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf3Ii_Qm-1o
The nurses can be heard shouting “This is a hospital! This is a hospital!” to try to bring some sense into them.
ฺBob, i still don’t believe that the army was operating on a shoot-to-kill policy as you suggest because if that was the case, all of those several days of round-the-clock intense fighting would have led to a much much higher number of total fatalities.
I maintain that those who were fighting with the army are the hardcore militants and not “innocent” protesters, the latter group being located in Ratchaprasong protest site and the army never advanced in to that area or attacked those protesters. The militant protesters came out to the adjacent areas to attack the soldiers. They were warned, knew of the risks but still decided to attack the soldiers. A lot of grenades were being launched at the soldiers. While isolated cases of panicked, nervous soldiers overreacting likely to have happened that it is far from being the norm. So the foreign press painting a picture of indiscriminate shooting by soldiers at “innocent” protesters is an inaccurate portrayal of the real overall situation.
btw, i also agree with all points in koko’s post showing some of the foreign press’s selective journalism when covering the events in Thailand. I just want to add on the issue of Thaksin. It is indeed surprisingly that while the issue of Thaksin obstructing the peacetalks since the time of the April televised negotiations between the PM and redshirt leaders was already widely discussed in Thai circles, the foreign press hardly picked it up. Out of the hundreds of written news articles only the WSJ article cited in koko’s post covered it as well as another one in the Economist.
some excerpts from the Economist’s article:
1. “As the bullets flew and the bodies fell, crocodile tears came from afar, as Mr Thaksin tweeted his sorrow to his followers. From his luxurious exile he denied, once again, that he was giving orders to the red-shirt leaders and urged everyone to embrace peace. There is little doubt, however, that Mr Thaksin holds sway over the splintered, squabbling red-shirt leadership. The two-month protest would not have been possible without his deep pockets, vengeful will and political network, even though the red-shirt cause has become much larger than him. And his stubbornness seems to have undone the peace talks, despite his protestations.”
2. “Many are asking why peace talks failed, when the red shirts had little hope of resisting the troops. Insiders say that Mr Thaksin was a serious spoiler, as were General Khattiya and other radicals.”
3. “That the leaders of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the red shirts’ formal title, failed to grasp this olive branch [Abhisit's roadmap] is tragic. They, as much as trigger-happy soldiers, must bear some responsibility for the lives lost.”
Koko
You may not want to believe it and that is your right.
I admit that the some militants were armed but the facts remain there was a well publicised 200 metre shoot to kill zone and it was upheld against unarmed civilians.A majority of those shot under this exclusion zone were the tyre burners and general nuisance makers,if you like you can call them militants,but most didnt pose an immediate threat from 150/200 metres without a weapon,yes they had been warned they would be shot in these areas and yes they did venture out knowing the dangers and risked their lives knowingly.(their reasoning for this can be left to another time)
Most of the time they were defending their positons not attacking soldiers the soldiers were closing in on them big difference.
U tube has plenty of footage of unarmed civilians being shot even whilst in defensive positions behind tyres 200 metres away,not by spooked soldiers but by trained professional soldiers with telescopic sights shooting with control.
Its not a blame game its just what happenned.
Maybe it was the right thing to do maybe it wasnt but it did happen,forget blaming other people “the foreign press’, ‘Taksin’,'black hands”"blue hands”‘little green men”
Thai soldiers were shooting unarmed Thai(many of which were not immediatly threatening the safety of the military).
To say there would have been more casualties if that was the policy is just incredible,no they were not spraying the streets with indiscriminate machine gun fire,they were picking off ‘militants one by one as was the strategy to soften up the hard guys before the final assault,completely understandable behavior from a military standpoint they were in control and didnt want to jepodise their own,it was a miltary operation.It happened and we cant deny it,it was ordered and they completed the operation as instructed.
Everybody was baying for blood they got their wish now they cant handle the truth and either want to deny or blame somebody else its pathetic indictment of the way the our nation is heading.Even now many people show no sorrow of respect for the dead,Thai dead, it completely bewilders,humbles and sorrows me to think this is where we are.
Even the Army are not actually denying the temple incident,if it was an accident which I have to beleive would be the case they should just admit the fact it was an accident,it seems they were offering defensive cover to troops on the ground, s.. happens under pressure but dont hide it away or blame non existant people.
Nobody wanted to wait another few days to exhaust all possiblities of a deal,no,no we cant lose face we must win.
Now look where we are.
The leaders are squabbling and doing deals as if nothing has happenned.Scary.
BOB
andrew
wakey wakey
Andrew Drummond Can’t I have a long lie in occasionally?
about the publicized 200 metre exclusion zone, from memory, the CRES announcer was saying single shots aimed at below knee-level of targets to prevent close combat confrontations (as close combat situations on 10 April had led to soldiers being stabbed by bamboo staves, etc)
The average death toll of around 5 - 6 persons a day during the 13 - 19 May period does suggest that only a tiny fraction out of the thousands of bullets fired during that period actually fatally wounded persons. This does suggest that most soldiers including those with telescopic equipment where not aiming to kill.
There are some (not a lot)you tube vdos showing soldiers aiming at unarmed protesters but the shots were not hitting them, almost in every case they can run away and go hide in some nearby soi. Seems to show that soldiers merely firing shots in their general direction to scare them away.
I remember seeing a few youtube videos of such scenes as you described but what I do remember is that while you can heard several consecutive gunshots being fired none were actually hitting the protesters. I’ve seen clips of them running away in open space successfully while several gunshots can be heard indicating that the soldiers where merely chasing them away or basically saying “don’t come near us, or else”. In other youtube scenes, I’ve seen protesters hiding behind cover while shots fired, again these shots didn’t actually hit them thus indicating again that soldiers were saying with bullets: “stay put and don’t come out to assault us with your petrol bombs/slingshots/etc.” There may have been unarmed protesters around but they were mingling with those who were armed so bullets would of course be coming into their direction.
Now, that’s not to say there weren’t any cases of triggerhappy soldiers deliberately wishing to do harm without good cause, but I maintain that such incidents are isolated cases, ie. the exception rather than the norm. This is reflected by the fact that in the final 7 days which saw the most intense fighting (apart from the 10 April incident) there was a death rate of not more than 5 persons a day.
Koko
So whilst negotiations for a peace deal were progressing with a Thai Senator,the fact that only one average size Thai family were being slaughtered everyday is acceptable to you as that how I read it?.
Think of 7 familys that you know incuding your own and consider the long term impact of this barbarity.
Now thats kills,how about the shot and wounded numbers torso,legs,arms,non fatal head wounds,loss of eyesight,hearing,throat wounds,back,shoulder shots,amputations,loss of movement.
If as you suggest there may have been an element of the military whom wished harm on the protesters and killed and wounded Thai people without orders to do so,what do you suggest should happen to them and their immediate commanders?.
The fact is the commanders on the ground were given cart blance to act within that 200 metre kill zone,it was publicised.
Many of the videos and pictures are now blocked but “nicknostitzin the killingzone” still works.However no death here only some protesters behind tyres getting shot at and some torso,leg and arm wounds.Sorry I will respect the rights of the dead.(although the gentleman with the “gut wound” may have died later(non confirmed)
In answer to your chase away theory, “you chase away with tear gas,rubber bullets and water canons not live rounds,live rounds are meant to kill not chase away.(I think there have been enough wars that confirm this)
So in summary is it fair to say the numbers you have offered of 5 kills per day for seven days is an average of the deaths reported by the authorities during the fighting at that time.
The number of gunshot injuries is unknown to me lets say 20 percent of all injuries over the final 7 days(I dont know the exact figure but I think around 500 to 800 injuries)so at say 20% thats around 10 to 16 gunshot wounds each day over the period of seven days.
So 5 people killed, and 10 to 16 Thai people shot and maimed everyday for seven days.
And lets not forget the troops whom were sadly also injured and killed,as well as the innocent people who suffocated in the burning buildings
Not a good look for a predominantly buddhist society.
Even now we are not grieving the dead,they must be given time before we can even think of moving on.
This is not a judgment on the actions of any one person or persons but a judgment on the nations hurry to harm other Thai people when we had time,the reds were trapped (and they knew it)we could have waited and we should have waited.
BOB
Andrew,
International men of mystery do not lie in bed all day.
BOB
Man of mystery? My life is an open book Bob - with a few pages firmly stuck together